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Kyle Harris

Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2013, 01:56:24 PM »
Sean,

Should that work for you, fine.

I find my distinctions to be useful and closed. However, since we are attempting to ramrod different categories into different paradigms I doubt the conversation can go much further. I only intended to clarify my own contexts.

While you are not in this category, I take particular offense to when certain posters declare the purity one format over the other. It is amongst my litmus tests for determining my opinion of that poster's other contributions.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2013, 02:05:14 PM »
Quote
Why can't there be some courses which an 18 capper finds too difficult to enjoy?
Because you won't find enough very good players to frequent that course. If it is a private course for a single person, who happens to sport a low single digit handicap, or you can find a group of Tour players supporting it, then by all means, go for it. But as a general rule this course is not sustainable under market conditions.

Ulrich

Ulrich

You are sorely mistaken.  There are tons of members of clubs who are not good enough for the course.  It can be a badge of honour for some, but if they enjoy it - no worries.  Me, I will gladly cry uncle when a course is too tough. 

Kyle

Yes, as I have no need to alter definitions, so the OED definition works just fine for me. 

I am not sure what you mean by purity of one format over the other.  Is this playing solo VS against competition or matchplay VS Medal?  Either way, I don't really care what people prefer.  Live and let live.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Kyle Harris

Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2013, 02:34:47 PM »
Sean,

I don't care what people prefer either, just do not attach a level of purity or superiority to it.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2013, 12:58:24 AM »
Sean/Ulrich,

What's the definition of a course that's "too difficult for its members?"  OK, if you have a bunch of women and seniors trying to play a course with forced carries they cannot make with no bailout that's obvious - there's no way around shots that are physically impossible or nearly impossible for a given golfer.  But just because a 5 handicap might shoot 90 or an 18 handicap might shoot 120 on a certain course doesn't mean it is too difficult for those golfers.  Only that it is a lot more difficult for them than a typical course might be.  Depending on the reason for that difficulty, and their preference for the amount and type of challenge they enjoy, it might be just their thing.

The type of challenges I enjoy and despise and what either of you two enjoy and despise are probably different.  So there are certain courses or conditions that one might praise and the other avoid.  I think it is rare indeed to find a course that is truly too difficult for more than a handful of its members.  They must be enjoying the challenge of it.

Hearing John Kavanaugh and his friends talk about Victoria National, it doesn't sound like a course I'd enjoy.  Losing a half dozen balls in long grass every time I show up with a balky driver sounds like a horrible slog, and a terrible excuse for architecture as far as I'm concerned.  Granted I haven't seen it, and if I had the opportunity to do so I'd give it a few rounds before eternally damning it ;)  But they obviously enjoy it.  On the other hand, perhaps they might hate Carnoustie, which I really like, or think playing in winds strong enough that a ball at rest can start blowing around on the green is ridiculous, while that is something I find one of the most fun aspects of traveling to Scotland and Ireland for golf.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2013, 03:13:19 AM »
Doug

I spose, if golfers insist on using par as a measure of a game, one could argue that folks who never have a hope of shooting par are in over their heads.  Me, I will take the Potter route on this one, I know an outmatched player when I see him.  But, that isn't the crux of my point.  If someone enjoys trying to break 100 on a tough course, who am I to call a foul?  That said,  bet a large percentage of those guys would be happier (all else being equal) playing a well designed yet less challenging course.  Golfers are creatures of habit and will rinse and repeat until they take a dirt nap.  Jeez, you can see what mental trauma golfers through with the thought of moving up a set of tees. 

Kyle

No, I don't attach superiority to any sort of play except in rare circumstances.  For instance, playing two singles matches as a 4ball is definitely inferior (honestly, twice I have been in this situation and both were a playing time nightmare - its a daft idea) to playing a better ball - tee hee.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2013, 11:41:12 PM »
Sean,

Why do you think that a large percentage of golfers would enjoy a "less challenging" course more than a difficult one?  If people wanted to shoot a low number, most of the courses being built these days would be executive courses and not 7000+ championship courses.  Humans like to challenge themselves, that's why people who run a 10K try for a half marathon, marathon runners try an Ironman, millionaires continue to go to work and take risks hoping to become a billionaire, and so on.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2013, 09:35:32 AM »
Doug,

I disagree.  Golfers enjoy playing the proper tees for their games, which in 90% of the cases is 6500 yards or less.  So you either have 10-15% extra real estate and all the cost and time associated with it, or a bunch of guys grinding out bogeys and doubles from tees that are too long for their games.  In either case I believe most will play less golf in the long run as even an idiot aspires to some form of happiness, time management and wealth preservation.  There's room for masochism among consenting adults, but one must have a safe word...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2013, 09:52:55 AM »
Sean,

Why do you think that a large percentage of golfers would enjoy a "less challenging" course more than a difficult one?  If people wanted to shoot a low number, most of the courses being built these days would be executive courses and not 7000+ championship courses.  Humans like to challenge themselves, that's why people who run a 10K try for a half marathon, marathon runners try an Ironman, millionaires continue to go to work and take risks hoping to become a billionaire, and so on.

For, most golfers, a 6000 yard course is a challenge they fail to meet - if par is the measure.  If bogey golf is the measure, a good percentage are right on target, a good percentage are still over-matched and good percentage are not challenged enough.  I am not sure of your point.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2013, 12:23:44 AM »
Sean,

Why do you think that a large percentage of golfers would enjoy a "less challenging" course more than a difficult one?  If people wanted to shoot a low number, most of the courses being built these days would be executive courses and not 7000+ championship courses.  Humans like to challenge themselves, that's why people who run a 10K try for a half marathon, marathon runners try an Ironman, millionaires continue to go to work and take risks hoping to become a billionaire, and so on.

For, most golfers, a 6000 yard course is a challenge they fail to meet - if par is the measure.  If bogey golf is the measure, a good percentage are right on target, a good percentage are still over-matched and good percentage are not challenged enough.  I am not sure of your point.

Ciao   


Yes, you are right on the mark, Sean.

Overall length of a course is only partially responsible of the how much challenge a course holds for an individual.  I think that factor is highly overrated, because while it is true that a pro can hit the ball significantly further and more accurately than a typical bogey golfer, the length of the pro is NOT his only advantage, not even his primary advantage.  It is the fact that he rarely misses shots, while a bogey golfer often does - thus the more shots that must be played on a given hole, the more opportunities for him to mess up.

Consider the following example.  Let's say you play a hole with some horrible bastardized not-really-golf design of 150 yards that due to extreme narrowness, impossibly high trees and ridiculously sharp dogleg turns can only be played via 50 yard shots landing within a landing area 10 yards in diameter.  If you miss the 10 yard diameter landing area you must play another shot into that landing area before you have the proper angle to negotiate the next 50 yard leg of the hole.  Thus it is listed on the card as a par 5 from the 150 yard tees for everyone from Bubba Watson to his 90 year old great grandmother, because the ability to hit the ball further than 50 yards is meaningless.

Despite that, I believe Bubba Watson would greatly outplay the typical bogey golfer on this hole because he would almost exclusively make 4s and 5s, while the typical bogey golfer would probably average 6 point something just as his bogey golfer handicap would suggest.  This is because he'd occasionally miss the landing area with one of his two layup pitches due to some type of mishit, or miss the green with his third, or hit it far enough away that he three putted, etc.  It isn't the length of this hole that foils the poor golfer, it is his inability to consistently string three simple 50 yard shots in a row that does.

Obviously no golf hole is like this, but I provide the example to illustrate why I believe that absolute length is quite overrated as a reason why poor golfers struggle.

This brings me back to your point.  A 6000 yard course is plenty of challenge for the bogey golfer, because his problem has little to do with the difference between having a short iron approach and a hybrid approach.  His problem is the fact that whatever club he uses for his approach, there is an x% chance of him hitting a poor shot and putting himself in a bad place.  The more shots he plays the more times that x% is multiplied together and the greater chance that he screws up some shot on the hole.  That's why par 5s are the #1 handicap holes where you give/get strokes and you do so on par 3s before any par 4 or 5 only in rare circumstances with a particularly difficult par 3 and particularly easy par 4.

I generally play from the back tees, and like all golfers, occasionally I have a bad day.  I'm not a bogey golfer, but at a 5.something index I'm certainly no scratch golfer, either.  On such a bad day I might shoot bogey golf from those back tees (7250 yards or so on my home course)  It might appear to an outside observer that I would struggle less if I moved up and played from the regular tees (6700 yards) or even the senior tees (6000 yards) but I think it would make little difference.  The bad drives I hit into the trees would still be in the trees - there's not all that much benefit between having to lay up from behind trees 180 yards out or from 120 yards out.  The irons I hit an inch or two behind the ball will still end up short of the green, whether I have a 6 iron in my hands or a SW in my hands.  The putts I miss are missed regardless of what tees I started play from.  Would I shoot a lower number if I played up on those days?  Sure.  Would I shave enough strokes off my total to make up for the lower course rating from the short tees?  Not even close!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2013, 03:35:19 AM »
Doug

Not that I favour using par as a measure of proficiency!  I have long believed the old bogey system was better for handicap players.  I have also long believed that the concept of par, if it is to have any meaning at all, needs an overhaul.  The new par for many courses should probably be a few shots less.  Essentially, the mark of an expert player would, for the sake of argument, be 70 on many courses.  The bogey score would likely be around 76-80 for many courses. 

Do you think if you played a 6500 yard course more often that more choices for laying up would be on offer?  I think that if you played smart, your score should be consistently lower on most 6500 yarders compared to most 7200 yarders.  Though there may be an issue of not having as much fun if you can't bash it round.  The thing is, on a well designed 6500 yard course I don't think the option for smash mouth golf is removed, it is merely more of a temptation/risk/reward situation. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "In Regulation" - What the hey?
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2013, 02:27:57 AM »
Doug

Not that I favour using par as a measure of proficiency!  I have long believed the old bogey system was better for handicap players.  I have also long believed that the concept of par, if it is to have any meaning at all, needs an overhaul.  The new par for many courses should probably be a few shots less.  Essentially, the mark of an expert player would, for the sake of argument, be 70 on many courses.  The bogey score would likely be around 76-80 for many courses. 

Do you think if you played a 6500 yard course more often that more choices for laying up would be on offer?  I think that if you played smart, your score should be consistently lower on most 6500 yarders compared to most 7200 yarders.  Though there may be an issue of not having as much fun if you can't bash it round.  The thing is, on a well designed 6500 yard course I don't think the option for smash mouth golf is removed, it is merely more of a temptation/risk/reward situation. 

Ciao 


Sean,

I'm sure that all else being equal I will shoot a lower score on a 6500 yard course than a 7200 yard course.  That's not what I was claiming.  Just that if you look at it via USGA slope/rating and my handicap, I'll shoot lower differentials on the 7200 yard course, because the additional length costs me less than the course rating will increase from the additional 700 yards.  That would probably continue ad infinitum even up to a silly 10,000 yard course, providing there aren't 300 yard forced carries as part of the deal :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

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