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Ronald Montesano

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2013, 07:52:45 AM »
Mind reader! I realized late last night that we had completely ignored him. How would the acreage of New Jersey (soil, growth, ground movement, water courses) have compared with the soils he worked in inland England (Sunningdale, et al.)?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Scott Warren

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2013, 08:17:48 AM »
Ronald,

Different but similar. The heathland is unlike Pine Valley in ways, but some of the terrain and style of setting echoes many heathland courses.

A friend who belongs to PV and has travelled widely says Sunningdale reminds him more of PV than any other place does.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2013, 08:25:31 AM »
Is the heathland more soil than sand? Less pine and more brush? I often utilize "different but similar" and await the unavoidable "huh?" reaction.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Scott Warren

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2013, 08:32:36 AM »
I am more a soil nuffy than neophyte, even, but yeah, I would say the heaths have a more balanced mix, a sandy loam like you might find on the Melbourne sandbelt.

The environment of the heaths varies significantly between, say, Swinley and Walton Heath, but many of them reside in pine forests not dissimilar to Pine Valley.

Jeb Bearer

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2013, 09:13:30 AM »
Is it brutal? Is it merciless? I've played The Monster (Catskills) and heard tales of Thunderhill (Cleveland area) and would consider those brutal and merciless.

Pine Valley seems eminently fair. Difficult for sure, but a course that rewards a good shot.

For those who have played PV, how many sets of tees and if there is a middle set, what is the longest forced carry from the middle set?

The ancients say it ain't golf unless you can putt from tee to green. I say, if you can play some variety of a seven-iron for every shot, it's golf.

I've never seen the course. Maybe it's not merciless, per se, but certainly it's penal in nature as opposed to strategic? At least that's what I've gathered from what I've read.

Scott Warren

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2013, 09:19:24 AM »
Jeb,

Many hazards and off piste areas of Pine Valley are severe, merciless and humbling.

But the course is far from penal. The severity of the hazards is central to the golf course's highly strategic nature.

In parts, it demands that you hit a certain shot.  But by and large it gives you all this rope you need to hang yourself, the way all the best courses do.

Mac Plumart

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2013, 09:23:50 AM »
Scott...

In Macwood's piece on Crump\Pine Valley, he mentions Crump's love of Sunningdale.

Do you think you could compare, and maybe contrast, the two courses?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeb Bearer

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2013, 09:25:43 AM »
Jeb,

Many hazards and off piste areas of Pine Valley are severe, merciless and humbling.

But the course is far from penal. The severity of the hazards is central to the golf course's highly strategic nature.

In parts, it demands that you hit a certain shot.  But by and large it gives you all this rope you need to hang yourself, the way all the best courses do.

Thanks Scott, I guess I had the wrong impression.

Mac Plumart

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2013, 09:30:27 AM »
Every other course I've played (good, bad or great) needs to be played to be useful, not PV...but I don't see it as the slightest bit strategic.

Jim said this. I think he is saying Pine Valley isn't strategic in design.  Am I missing his point?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Scott Warren

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2013, 09:36:19 AM »
Mac,

Quote
Do you think you could compare, and maybe contrast, the two courses?

Unfortunately not. I am familiar with most of the main London Heathlands, but not Sunningdale. Never played either course there.

Perhaps Tom Birkert, Mark Chaplin or maybe Simon Holt or Paul Turner might chime in. Tom Dunne also - he has some great insights re: Colt's contribution at PV, but I don't know if he has been to Sunningdale.

Mac Plumart

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2013, 09:41:42 AM »
Thanks, Scott. Hopefully someone can chime in.

 It certainly appears, from Tom Macwood's piece, that Sunningdale made an impact on Crump and it seems that Tom thought this might have been why he liked Colt's work and might have been where they met.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2013, 10:10:04 AM »
I wondered the same thing. Even a driving range is strategic. Can't see how Pine Valley would not be considered strategic.

Unless...

Jim is referring to a school of design, which would be a pithy point and in need of some elaboration.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeb Bearer

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2013, 10:29:47 AM »
When I said strategic, I was referring to "hit it there, or your next shot will be more difficult because of angle, stance, etc." as opposed to "hit it there, or else". Like I said, I've never played or seen the course, but from what others have said, it sounded like Crump wanted all less-than-perfect shots to be punished with an iffy lie in a bunker. Is that the case, or does the course employ multiple risk-reward options as well?

And to clarify, in no way am I criticizing Pine Valley, I'm just trying to understand the nature of the course and what sets it apart.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2013, 11:03:16 AM »
Jeb (not Jim, who is another thread-poster), I think we agree that there are multiple places where one can hit a drive at Pine Valley and still have an excellent change at executing the next shot in the appropriate way. A Google Earth tour of the course confirms that.

The whole notion of angle and stance is overplayed in my opinion. If you are in the fairway, your angle and stance will be manageable no matter the course. A sadistic designer might build punitive-even-from-the-fairway into a course, but I don't suspect that is the case at Pine Valley.

Is it built for the person who can carry the ball 150 yards with a 7 iron but trembles at the thought of a forced carry over 200 yards of water? No. My aerial tour shows a pair of par three holes with quite lengthy and nerve-wracking journeys of that sort. In addition, you have a fair number of launches over wastelands that accomplish the same task.

An intelligent and controlled 12-handicap or better golfer, aware of his distances and his tendencies, should be able to negotiate this golf course with today's technologically-advanced game. Rather than attempt to play to a game of which she/he is incapable (that of a precise professional), the challenge would be "did I keep my head for everyone of my XX shots during the round and make the proper decisions?"

I realize that this strays from the architectural point, but I needed to put my thoughts down on how a variety of golfers (not the majority) might fight strategy with strategy.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

archie_struthers

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2013, 11:26:51 AM »
 ;) :D 8)

Ron , we've discussed this in depth on other threads but you are essentially spot on. No single shot or play at Pine Valley is too tough for the proficient golfer, if we'll thought out.  Some may argue the tee shot on five, which is actually more difficult for the expert. A four here is par for almost anyone . 

The beauty is that an amateur can make a lot of pars (good putting a must) but invariably will miss one, which tends to promote more misses in an effort to recover. Of course all bets are off when the greens are prepared for a tournament or you walk to,the back tees.








Jeb Bearer

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2013, 11:53:59 AM »
So it sounds like it's even more a mental test than a physical one. Each and every shot may be eminently manageable, but, golf being golf, you are bond to mess up at some point even in your best round. The test then is can you take your medicine, and can you continue on without letting the lost shot ruin your composure? Very interesting, it cuts right to the heart of the character-building aspect of golf.

Mac Plumart

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2013, 11:55:33 AM »
Where did I read about someone making a 40 on one of the holes!!!

 ;D




If no one knows off the top of their head, I'll dig it up tonight.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeb Bearer

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2013, 11:57:50 AM »
Where did I read about someone making a 40 on one of the holes!!!

 ;D




If no one knows off the top of their head, I'll dig it up tonight.

 :o Wow......
At least they're determined

Ronald Montesano

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2013, 12:26:47 PM »
Jeb, that's excellent. If we all played that way, we would understand golf courses much better.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2013, 01:11:21 PM »
Archie,

I don't think the genius of the design has it's foundation in the terrain.

There are other courses close by with similar terrain, but, they don't compare to PV.

I think there may be several key elements.

Crump devoted his life to the project, literally living on the property for years.

He understood golf, the terrain and aspired to build a course that would, as it's primary mission, test the champion golfer,  and not equitably accomodate every level of golfer.

As he immersed himself in his project, he sought the advice of "experts" in the field of architecture. incorporating their suggestions in his routing and hole designs.

It would seem, that like an exceptional CEO, Crump guided others allowing them to contribute to the project in a meaningful way..

I don't think any of them dreamed that the course would be a course for the ages, remaining not only relevant 100 years later, but, at the top of the golf course world 100 years.

Other than the dogleg right similarity in # 1 and # 6 there's virtually no repetition with any of the holes.
Each is incredibly distinct.

Remember, one of Crump's original concepts was to have 18 special members, each design an individual hole.
Certainly, each hole has a unique personality, almost as if each hole was designed by a different person with Crump tying them together to provide the continuity.

When you examine the dramatic difference in each hole, it's quite startling.

So, was it genius or just good design with brilliant luck ?

I tend to lean toward the former with a little of the latter.

Mac Plumart

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2013, 02:08:36 PM »
Reading through "Pine Valley--A Unique Haven of the Game"...

I found this about Crump and Colt's relationship.

"How well Crump and Colt got along is purely a matter for conjecture, though they may not have been the proverbial peas in a pod. It is probable hat they were never on a first-name basis."

"He (Colt) spent a full week examining the ground thoroughly and then submitted plans for an eighteen-hole golf course which, in his opinion, would be the equal of any inland course in the world"

"Colt remained at Pine Valley for no more than two weeks, doubtless working, at least some of that time, in a collaborative mode with Crump, counseling him in theory and in specific detail.  Understandably, then, the question persists as to what extent Pine Valley is a reflection of the great English designer's input, especially in view of the fact that some newspaper accounts of the time incline to minimize Colt's role. "

"There can be little question about how Colt himself viewed his role in the project.  In a piece on Sunningdale that he wrote for the October 1914 issues of Golfer's Magazine (a British publication), he commented, "The only course in America that I have seen which resembles it [Sunningdale] in any way is the new course at Pine Valley, near Philadelphia, which I had the honor to lay out last year..."

"But Crump himself had looked closely at Sunningdale on his visit to England with Baker in 1910.  And the Pine Valley terrain, to begin with, was not unlike that of the great suburban London course..."


In between these items I quote, the books talks about the Crump routing and the Colt routing ideas.  But then says,

"There is no Colt routing plan.  The holes are basically where George Crump place them in the plan he drew up about two months before Colt arrived."

Wasn't there pretty intense discussion on here regarding these routings?  In fact, I think I have a copy of these plans.  


PS...still trying to find that passage on the guy who made a 40 on one of the holes.


EDIT...this was sent to me in regards to the above routing discussion.


I'll try to explain this as simply as possible. What is quoted above from Mr. Finegan's "Pine Valley---A Unique Haven of the Game," is a mistaken assumption he made that the date (March, 1913) on the map he referred to was the date the routing on that map was finished. That map would actually initially be used by both Colt and Crump together during Colt's visit in the end of May, beginning of June 1913, and would be used by Crump to make design changes on until near the end of his life (Jan. 1918). It is the map commonly referred to as the "Blue/Red Line Topo." It has hung in the clubhouse for years. The date on that map (March, 1913) is actually the surveyor's date before the map was given to George A. Crump.


There is another map that we believe is a topo duplicate of the map mentioned above that Crump worked on himself before Colt first arrived in the end of May, beginning of June, 1913.


There is a third map of the course with a legend on it that says "Scheme for the Pine Valley Golf Course as Suggested by H.S. Colt." This map has a date of July, 1913 on it. Since H.S. Colt left the USA on June 9, 1913, we believe this map was made by the same surveyor mentioned above from hole by hole drawings in a notebook that Colt left with the club. That map had not been seen for many years and turned up on Ebay about 6-7 years ago. A group of us bought it and turned it over to Pine Valley.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 06:32:07 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JESII

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2013, 02:10:28 PM »
My point in saying the course isn't the least bit strategic is two-fold; I think people think a course must be highly strategic to be great and I disagree. I don't think a case can be made that the risk of playing for a preferred angle is worth the reward earned by achieving it...at PV.

Archie may bring up #4 and I'm happy to have that debate. Pat will likely bring up 18 different ones and I'm happy to have those as well.

If you aim for the middle of the fairway on every shot your long term averages will be better than going for certain angles. There are holes that I will hit less than driver off the tee but is that alone a strategic decision?

Mac Plumart

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2013, 02:17:45 PM »
PS...still trying to find that passage on the guy who made a 40 on one of the holes.

Got it!!    :D


Again, from the Pine Valley book...the section on Hole 14, a 168-184 yard par 3.   ;D


"The highest score ever recorded on this hole was by a player who, as it happened, was then president of Burning Tree Golf Club and here at Pine Valley as John Arthur Brown's guest.  He hole out in 43: on in 40 following a breathtaking display of the shanks, and then three putts.  He framed the scorecard so that Brown could hang it in his office."

 ;D ;D ;D
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2013, 02:25:39 PM »
My point in saying the course isn't the least bit strategic is two-fold; I think people think a course must be highly strategic to be great and I disagree. I don't think a case can be made that the risk of playing for a preferred angle is worth the reward earned by achieving it...at PV.

Archie may bring up #4 and I'm happy to have that debate. Pat will likely bring up 18 different ones and I'm happy to have those as well.

No, I mostly agree.
I think there are prefered angles of attack, depending upon hole location, but in general, you can't go wrong being in the middle of the fairway on any hole.


If you aim for the middle of the fairway on every shot your long term averages will be better than going for certain angles. There are holes that I will hit less than driver off the tee but is that alone a strategic decision?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: More Pine Valley architecture
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2013, 04:18:39 PM »
Mac:

One modern course that resonates of Pine Valley is Keiser's 9 hole Dunes Club course.

The par 5 3rd has characteristics of HHA.  Others may be able to provide a bit more insight into other comparisons.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross