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Peter Pallotta

The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« on: December 31, 2012, 11:10:27 PM »
So, on the one hand we have the romantics - forever waxing poetic about the experience that a given course provides/allows them: the freedom, the peace, the bounty of ever-changing sensations, the aura of mystery and possibility. On the other hand, we have the realists - measuring tapes at the ready, discerning of eye, an encyclopedic knowledge of the principles made manifest on great golf courses past and present, comparing and contrasting features and shot tests with the rigour of devoted scientists. Worlds apart, you might say, these two: the romantics and the realists, the writers and the rankers; very different approaches to the game and to the fields of play, you would think; the cat's meow for one is the bane of existence for the other. Ah, but no: you would be wrong. Because almost without exception it seems the courses that draw the most love from the romantics ("the hair stood on the back of my neck with the palpable air of the holy all about me") are the very same courses that the realists have over and over ranked high or very on their lists of the the best of all time ("I see here at work the traditionally dynamic blend of severe challenge and variety of recovery options forged through a routing brilliance that exemplifies the best of the golden age"). Which means, it would appear, that in fact everyone judges a golf course in precisely the same way (and are merely using different language to express this); and that the subjectie-objective dichotomy is a false one (with the Behr-Crane debates having never actually occurred); and that what we may like to think of as important debates and heated discussions are based not on strongly held -- and strongly differing - views, but instead on personal and particular pet peeves (little snits and storms of wounded pride amongst siblings).  I conclude, then, that everyone who has ever even remotely been interested in and made himself knowledgable about golf courses does in fact agree on what the best architectured* courses in the world really are; and that in fact what we spend ourselves doing here is splitting hairs, just to pass the time. Hard to argue against that, isn't it? I'd like to argue against it, believe me -- but I can't.
  
*I say architectured instead of designed so as to make clear I'm including everything: e.g. what was there and what was put there, what got shaped and what was left alone, the carefully planned and the happily accidental.

Peter
(Best to all of you for 2013)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 11:16:42 PM by PPallotta »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 11:16:08 PM »
Its because the realists put away their tape measure in the presence of true romance :)

Peter, Happy New Year.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 11:19:47 PM »
Well, thanks a lot for taking the steam out of this thread!! Who is going to bother reading me when they have you taking the piss out of it!  :)

Happy New year to you too, Don. Hope the family is well, and that all is well.

Peter

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 11:54:35 PM »
Peter,
For the love of God I cannot discern whether you are being  subjective or objective here!
However for me personally I like C.S.Lewis's own remark to a friend where he said, "I suggest that the object of a work of art is not to be criticized but to be experienced and enjoyed". Thanks to Wikipedia for that.
I like the idea that there is architecture in place but invariably just get out there and play to the best of my ability. My game is such that I thought the nuances of the architecture invariably didn't apply but interestingly on the Melbourne sandbelt this Christmas my poor game skills found me looking down the wrong end of the barrel many a time. So the architects of Yarra Yarra And Commonwealth can rest easy in a job well done!

And A happy New Year to you too,

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2013, 12:23:17 AM »
"I suggest that the object of a work of art is not to be criticized but to be experienced and enjoyed".

I'd agree with Peter and Don's point that regardless of your bias, when you play a gem...you know it.  And to Colin's quote of CS Lewis, when you find those courses you want to play them again and again and again to enjoy and experience them.  I feel that is why many of us travel the world is search of that next great experience.  And/or when we've found what we're looking for, we can't wait to go 'round again.


Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2013, 12:44:09 AM »
Peter - yes there is no objective truth. Vocabulary and frame of reference is a very subjective thing regardless of how objective a given individual may claim to be.

Is there intuition and truth devoid of vocabulary and reference? Is there objective truth, or merely Kantian self-evident facts? Do we seek truth through our conversation or merely while away the time in a Sarte-like Beckett play where we simply mentally-masturbate for self-gratification? Are we hopped-up Hobbesian monkeys drawn to this forum through fate as defined by the linear nature of an upper dimension imposed upon us as a line is imposed by a third dimension? None of this do I know - but I may have an opinion. Just as we all have opinions on courses of merit and interest.

Those courses that have stood the test of time are deemed worthy and their imperfections are deemed as clever eccentricities. Newer courses that age and survive their "adjustments" and "improvements" will be similarly judged. Just as Salieri has faded under Mozart's acceptance of brilliance, today's course will sort themselves out over time.

<Edited because I hate typos>
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 12:47:16 AM by Jim Sherma »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 12:44:50 AM »
Balderdash!

There are lots of great golf courses that romantics don't love because they are not Heide Klum, and that realists don't love because they are not Stephen Hawking.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 08:44:35 AM »
Peter

Nice post. I agree: no matter what anyone states, rankings do not measure greatness, they measure personal preferences or as you nicely put it, "pet peeves." Criteria may be employed to create a bogus aura of objectivity but then you have the criteria themselves: a representatiin of the preferences of whoever decided them. There is no objectivity.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 09:43:38 AM »
Mark - what's more troubling to me is that there seems to be no subjectivity either!

When the writer-romatics make their (apparently non-criteria-based) picks, and these end up matching those made by the (principle and rule-bound) ranker-realists, then I'd suggest that there's no distinction: and if we poo-poo the objectivity of the 'rankers' we need to also poo-poo the subjectivity of the 'writers'.

Perhaps the realists just need to bolsters/support their feelings by using rules and numbers, and the romantics are too in love with their own feelings to see that they respect the same rules and numbers.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 10:30:31 AM by PPallotta »

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 10:17:42 AM »
Peter,

Nicely done but I thought you were saying both groups based their opinions on their personal pet peeves and not on whatever they professed. How is that not subjective?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 10:29:29 AM »
Mark - I must have expressed myself badly. I was trying to say that the 'differences' we seem to see and argue about are no such differences at all - i.e. not the major differences between those of the rules and those of the spirit (as much as we might like such lofty debates), but the squirmy little snits between those who essentially agree but still want something by which they can stand apart (and above).

Peter

Ivan Morris

Re: The Subjective-Objective Heresy
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 10:52:39 AM »
I must be a romantic because how I feel about a golf course is the most important thing. I like golf courses that lift my spirits and force me to play at my best. I love some courses more than others but not in a 1,2,3 kind of way. Surely, ranking one's 'loves' numerically would be regarded as 'crass.'