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Mike Sweeney



Upon reflection, one of the most unique features of Streamsong is there is no rough on the property. The playing surfaces are:

1. greens

2. fairways and tees - same cut

3. bunkers

4. native areas (which do in fact have to be maintained)

5. water/ponds

There is no rough on the property. We had a brief conversation with Rusty the Head Greenskeeper who came from Cuscowilla and both he and our own Kyle Harris are excited to maintain the course in this manner.

It would appear to an outsider as a simpler and less expensive way to maintain a golf course.

I think Ballyneal is set up in a similar fashion? I have not been there.  Are there any other "notable" courses in the USA or abroad that are set up this way?

I personally loved the setup.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 02:57:38 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Mike_Young

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 10:18:41 AM »
Mike,
Great photo.
I think it's a great concept and probably used more in Europe than here.  I have been doing it on The Fields Golf Club here in Ga and will be doing it to Longshadow when it reopens.  We began the Fields last year by mowing a cut around our native areas with a self-contained lightweight 5 gang unit and then mowed tees and green complexes with the same unit.  We mowed the greens complex from about 20 yards in to the approach inward.  We then would use transport frame 7 gang with 11 blade reels to mow every other inch of grass.  The only issue was I should probably be using 7 blade reels on the transport.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Davis

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 10:27:25 AM »
While I've only see the photos of Streamsong, I think it looks brilliant. It seems to be one of these hybrid (for lack of a better more appropriate name) courses. Not parkland, not links, not really inland links like.

As for the conditioning it's common in Europe however only on links and heathland courses (although I'm even second guessing myself on the heathland courses). In any case, it sure does make for fun golf around the greens, it opens up multiple option in many cases, putting, chipping, lobbing and bumping it making good players think and giving the higher hcp'ers a chance often as well.

I'd lean towards saying it will work best with sand based turf or at least courses adhering to hard and fast maintenance practices.

Curious what others will think.
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Ivan Morris

Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 10:47:25 AM »
Oh yes, please! Let's have more course set-ups like Streamsong's.

Tom_Doak

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 10:53:51 AM »
Mike:

We have tried to build courses with "no rough" [no mowed rough] several times, where we could.  These are the factors that make it easier or more difficult:

1.  You're committing to a fairly big acreage of turf to do this [you have to have enough playable area where you can find your ball], so you have to be using a type of grass for the fairways that isn't extra-costly to maintain relative to the roughs.  Bermuda, paspalum, and fescue all fit ... perhaps even bluegrass fits.  Bentgrass fairways do not lend themselves to this application.

2.  In most cases there is just a BIT of mowed rough as a buffer to the native, because it's hard to go straight from 1/2 inch cut to six-inch high native.  If you insist on counting that, even Streamsong probably has a little bit of mowed rough.  

3.  Some superintendents will insist they need x feet of rough buffering the whole course in order to turn the mowers around when they are mowing the fairways at a cross-cut, but that's only because they can't get over doing things the way they've always done them.

4.  It does help if you have sandy soil, because of the methods of modern green construction.  If you're building on clay, it's hard to have short grass all around the green.  You're afraid the greens mix will get contaminated if any water drains from the surrounds onto the green, and even if you do make everything drain away from the green, you've still got clay next to sand, so the fact that it's short turf does not mean the ball will react the same way when it lands.  This is part of that old GCA corollary -- everything is harder for Mike Young than it is for me.  ;)  (And he's right, it is just hard to work in Georgia clay.)

5.  Sandy soil also helps because the native rough tends to manage itself better.  On more fertile soils it just keeps getting thicker and you lose balls all the time, so you have to maintain the rough periodically.

6.  Sandy soil ALSO helps because you can take some of the tee-to-fairway area right down to open sand where you can still find a topped tee shot.  This is probably the place where we've made the most exceptions to the "no rough" concept ... because you have to be able to find topped tee shots, and not many clients want to bring the fairway all the way back to the tees.

We have attempted the "no rough" look now at Ballyneal, Stone Eagle [though you need a bit of rough there because it's impossible to mow right up to the rocks], Sebonack, the Bay of Dreams, Rock Creek, Old Macdonald, and Streamsong.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 11:25:13 AM »
It's like Alister Mackenzie homage. With luck none of Mike Y's or Tom D's courses will end up under a bridge on-ramp.  :'(
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Tom_Doak

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 11:28:44 AM »
It's like Alister Mackenzie homage. With luck none of Mike Y's or Tom D's courses will end up under a bridge on-ramp.  :'(

I think it will be a long time before they build a highway past Barnbougle or Cape Kidnappers or Dismal River.  But I did go under a highway bridge at Lost Dunes and it was okay.  :)

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 11:31:05 AM »
Beware the concrete-mad Chinese!
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mike Sweeney

Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 03:12:02 PM »

As for the conditioning it's common in Europe however only on links and heathland courses (although I'm even second guessing myself on the heathland courses). In any case, it sure does make for fun golf around the greens, it opens up multiple option in many cases, putting, chipping, lobbing and bumping it making good players think and giving the higher hcp'ers a chance often as well.


David,

I am curious to hear what in Europe is set up like Streamsong. I have not played enough in Europe, but my impression is much of it is set up like Enniscrone:


Mike Young,

Any update on Long Shadow's timing?


Tom_Doak

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 03:20:20 PM »
Beware the concrete-mad Chinese!

That is funny because both of our Chinese projects depend on a new bridge -- the first to allow visitors to get onto the island where the course is built, the second to dramatically shorten the drive from the city to the course.  But we are building the first bridge ourselves, and the second is ten miles from the course, so I think we're okay.

David Davis

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 03:57:34 PM »
Mike,

I may be guilty of not reading you post thoroughly so my apologies for that. When I was reading I was looking at the photo, it slides since it doesn't completely fit in the box so I was mainly focusing on the greens not having rough around them which is very common in Europe. Streamsong appears to have cut the rough but left the natural long stuff on the sides of the fairways, although admittedly the fairways seem wider than what's common here but still I think it's close. You posted a photo of Enniscrone which I've actually never played and I see what you mean. However take a look at a couple of these links and tell me if you think that's close to what's been done at Streamsong and what you are talking about. There is still rough on all these links courses but from the photos it looks more like the natural long grass bordering the fairways at Streasong to me, not having been there.

http://www.royaldornoch.com/Gallery

http://www.google.com/search?q=old+course+st+andrews+photos&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=habgUNKjJYWg0QXeJA&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1440&bih=764

http://www.kingsbarns.com/image-gallery

http://www.lahinchgolf.com/the-course/photo-gallery/

It seems at Lahinch as an example where possible they've cut everything and where it's really difficult to run a mower the've not cut it short and they also have a first cut but I'm guessing their first cut is about as long as the fairway grass at most places.

http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/course-tour

http://www.royalcountydown.org/photos.aspx


I could go on and I understand you may not agree and perhaps your point is that all the rough is gone completely however my opinion would be it's leaning much more towards what I'm pointing out above especially around the green complexes than anything else in the US. I think you will notice that Enniscrone is no where near these I've pointed out. Perhaps, that's what they could do to make the course better?
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 04:43:03 PM »
I think links courses can and do do the "no rough" look quite easily... But it's as much about the bleeding the transitions from fairway in to deep native areas... Very few of them have enough width to go straight from fairway to deep, deep marram grass and why would they want to? Over time that marram gets trampled anyway and then there is no noticeable transition... or the fescue stalks start coming up through any first cut that is created and that bleeds the transition also.... Enniscrone could widen those fairways easily to be honest... Same grasses after all...

Michael Whitaker

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 05:10:51 PM »
Mike,

Nearly every links or heathland course I have played has very little or no rough... definitely nothing like the rough one would find around the courses you and I play at home. There is "native" off to the sides with varying degrees of width, but not the type of thick rough I think you are referencing. This is one of the reasons Sean Arble gets so frustrated with US courses that encircle fairways in rough and isolate fairway bunkers in a sea of thick grass.

This is one of the reasons golf is so much fun the UK.

Whit
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jason Thurman

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 05:19:20 PM »
If Augusta didn't convince people to present courses with minimal rough over the last 50 years, I'm not sure how a high-end resort course that most golfers have never heard of and will never see on television is going to start it.

Streamsong looks cool, but I don't exactly see it reinventing the game of golf or golf course presentation.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Adam Clayman

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 05:29:22 PM »
Tom D. - What was the grass choice at Streamsong? Sorry, I must've missed it, if it's been answered elsewhere)

And on the bridge you're building in China, Did someone show you where and how to start?  :)

Sweens, There's one cut courses out there. Not all are names. Not all are tight turf either. Aesthetically, I prefer the less busy aspect differing
hoc offers. i.e. I can't imagine how much greater Merion would be without it's long rough. Pinehurst #2 will introduce this concept on the world stage in '14. Those troglodytes that base their preferences on the dark age of course design and presentation, will continue to defend an indefensible position.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2012, 05:42:47 PM »
Tom D. - What was the grass choice at Streamsong? Sorry, I must've missed it, if it's been answered elsewhere)


Adam:

Everything is 419 Bermuda, except for the greens which are Mini Verde.

It's pretty old school.  There was some criticism from the turf salesmen about not going to one of the newer varieties of Bermuda, but I couldn't be happier with how the 419 is playing under the management of Rusty Mercer and Kyle Harris.

Mike Sweeney

Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »
I think you will notice that Enniscrone is no where near these I've pointed out. Perhaps, that's what they could do to make the course better?

David,

Sadly I am a member at Enniscrone, the American Links of Ireland.  :D Those pictures are exactly what I am talking about. Thanks for posting.

If Augusta didn't convince people to present courses with minimal rough over the last 50 years, I'm not sure how a high-end resort course that most golfers have never heard of and will never see on television is going to start it.

Streamsong looks cool, but I don't exactly see it reinventing the game of golf or golf course presentation.

Jason,

Tom Doak has always stated that Pacific was very important to his career as it was and is public. Lots of people get to see it.

Streamsong is a public facility that is 75 to 90 minutes from the largest tourist area in the USA and it is not a coincidence that the "opening weekend" is tied to this year's PGA show in Orlando next month. Lots of "names" from the industry have already been there, and lots more will be there over the next month.

They have a big investment in the facility and they clearly want to make money. It is my impression that this is a more cost effective way to maintain a golf course.

It is my understanding that Streamsong is NOT going to overseed and that could mean a very brown course for "opening weekend" with lots of influential people seeing and playing the course.

Some of my fondest memories of Mountain Lake was the winter when it played purple!!  ;)

They are pricing themselves to get golfers like us to take notice and that means give feedback.

It is a risk, but so was Bandon.

Kavanaugh will be very happy. No freebies for raters moving forward.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 06:40:19 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Jason Thurman

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 09:50:15 PM »
Mike, I get what you're saying. I just think we sometimes go a little overboard with the adulation for certain new courses around here.

Streamsong looks to me like a really nice complex and a worthwhile trip. Beyond that, though, I guess I'm too cynical to believe a single 36 hole complex is going to completely change how even a handful of courses nationally will be maintained.  Hell, at this point I think it's still fair to speculate about things ike how highly the courses will be ranked and how successful it will be financially. Changing the world of golf course maintenance seems pretty ambitious for a facility that just opened a few weeks ago.

On top of that, the trend you ask about doesn't seem especially new. Augusta historically had minimal rough for as long as I can remember. Pinehurst No. 2 has minimal rough (along with many other courses in the Pinehurst area). Perhaps Streamsong is part of a growing movement toward minimal rough, but it certainly isn't the initiator of that movement.

Tom's first post also makes the point that minimal rough is hard to pull off on a lot of courses. Are there really a lot of areas of the country in which a rough-free presentation is feasible? I can't imagine a course pulling that off in any of the states where I've lived just due to the nature of the soils and the natural vegetation that grows in the area (Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Iowa).

How exactly do you picture this new conditioning trend materializing?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 09:55:46 PM »

Kavanaugh will be very happy. No freebies for raters moving forward.



This would explain why we already have a thread bitching about the reservation process.  If I can get a confirmation of the above I will visit very soon just to show my support.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2012, 03:15:30 AM »
It's like Alister Mackenzie homage. With luck none of Mike Y's or Tom D's courses will end up under a bridge on-ramp.  :'(

Mark, you should know better than most that Bayside was not lost to a bridge on-ramp but to housing first and foremost!  :) The Clearview Expressway now runs through the land that was the course but it is quite a ways south of the bridge, so I think the claim that Bayside is under the Throgs Neck Bridge on-ramp is a bit of an urban myth. The course went back to 9 holes late in 1956 with the other land given over to housing. When the Expressway route was decided upon the remainder of the golf course was acquired as a site for the relocation of houses from the path of the expressway, with part given over to a new athletics field for the adjacent Bayside High School.

Tom, love the no rough look at Streamsong. Mackenzie would be smiling.

Mike Sweeney

Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2012, 05:01:03 AM »
Jason said:

Mike, I get what you're saying. I just think we sometimes go a little overboard with the adulation for certain new courses around here.

Agreed and you will notice on the other thread that I was somewhat critical of Streamsong Red. I have gotten a few IM and emails about my thoughts confirming what I said - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54320.0.html We will see what others think over the next month or two.

Streamsong looks to me like a really nice complex and a worthwhile trip. Beyond that, though, I guess I'm too cynical to believe a single 36 hole complex is going to completely change how even a handful of courses nationally will be maintained.  Hell, at this point I think it's still fair to speculate about things ike how highly the courses will be ranked and how successful it will be financially. Changing the world of golf course maintenance seems pretty ambitious for a facility that just opened a few weeks ago.

Agreed, I was talking about a trend similar to what we have seen over the last 10 years with trees. It started with Oakmont and has spread to a number of courses. Dunlop White was one of the bigger voices in that trend and today Old Town (Dunlop's home course) is now following that trend.

On top of that, the trend you ask about doesn't seem especially new. Augusta historically had minimal rough for as long as I can remember. Pinehurst No. 2 has minimal rough (along with many other courses in the Pinehurst area). Perhaps Streamsong is part of a growing movement toward minimal rough, but it certainly isn't the initiator of that movement.

Agreed, as seen above in David's post, the trend has always been in Europe. Not sure how old you are, but Augusta reversed their no rough maintenance style in 1999. For years the course always played without rough and in 1999, rough was introduced at The Masters - http://articles.latimes.com/1999/mar/12/sports/sp-16552


Now Pinehurst #2 appears from Pictures to be going back to the no rough style of maintenance:



Tom's first post also makes the point that minimal rough is hard to pull off on a lot of courses. Are there really a lot of areas of the country in which a rough-free presentation is feasible? I can't imagine a course pulling that off in any of the states where I've lived just due to the nature of the soils and the natural vegetation that grows in the area (Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Iowa).

No offense to Tom, but his focus is on building new courses. He does not maintain courses. I would like to hear from Don Mahaffey as Wolf Point appears to be set up with no rough? Also interested in other Super's thoughts in terms of budget considerations and issues. Not sure why one mower length is an issue?


How exactly do you picture this new conditioning trend materializing?

First it starts with architects like Tom Doak and Mike Young. Neither Mike or Tom are known for following industry trends, so that is a good start. Next we would need Supers to jump on board. I am going to send this thread to Scott Ramsey the Super at Yale as he typically goes to the PGA show in Orlando. Years ago, Tommy Naccarato suggested one cut at Yale:



Just remembered that The New Course at Grand Cypress is set up in a pretty much no rough manner:



They may have some minimal rough around the bunkering. Gib Papazian is a fan of The New and if Gib like a Nicklaus course, there must be something to this.  :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 05:39:53 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Sean_A

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2012, 05:57:02 AM »
Mike

I am not that fussed about the concept of a minor cut of rough before the gunge line, its more a question of where this rough appears.  Sometimes it seems to appear quite indiscriminately such as short of bunkers, on sidehills stopping balls from rolling back into bunkers etc. or pinching the aprons of greens (this one really bewilders me). 

I am not sure if people realize it or not, but practically every links I have seen has a maintained rough strip before the gunge.  Usually it is cut low enough to not in the least be a problem.  In fact, for handicap players, I expect many prefer this short rough to the fairway. 

I am more of a practical person when it comes to these things.  Cost has to be carefully analysed where rough lines are concerned - especially on hillsides and that level is different for each club.  That said, I can't see how maintaining fairway shy of greens and bunkers could be financially onerous.  Anyway, thanks for the Mike.  The course looks interesting.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Marc Haring

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2012, 06:01:58 AM »


Many of the UK courses use this maintenance style, mainly because of the native "mowers"

Don_Mahaffey

Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2012, 08:39:37 AM »
I don't know that it's a new conditioning trend, but I like it and think it makes for better golf in most cases. I really like the look of Streamsong and can't wait to get there and play both courses.
At WP we have about 80 acres of fwy turf with a ring of short rough cut, ~1.5", around the edges and along the creeks. As TD mentioned grass type has a lot to do with it. We're all 419, so we're not married to any lines, and in our climate and with our maintenance requirements, its a very good fit for our presentation.   If WP had a different clientele, we'd spend a little more time on the turf, probably shoot for more density and cut it tighter. But with our situation, it works just fine even though some find it a bit ragged.
I believe the multiple heights of cut we often see is overkill and a result of trying to look high end and add definition. With the right grasses, I don't think it costs all that more to maintain it all short as there are trade offs... fewer heights of cut mean fewer types of mowers which means easier to maintain equipment, stock parts, train employees...etc

Kris Shreiner

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Re: No rough - Will Streamsong start a new conditioning trend?
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2012, 02:37:05 PM »
While Streamsong may not be doing something "revolutionary" with their maintenance approach, from what I've seen, Rusty, Kyle and the rest of the gang getting it done there are pretty on point. They are presenting that ground in a resource-efficient, attractive way that provides challenging, enjoyable options that allow both ground and aerial play.

To me, this is EXACTLY the right way forward...and given the elements found there, an ideal model to emulate. The fact large numbers of the public, both golf industry folk and retail players, will be exposed to it should certainly help bolster the trend of leaner presentations where practical. On this aspect of the project they have been bang on.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 08:28:30 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak