The trumpification of Northern Ireland?

[Rich Goodale]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/29/national-trust-giants-causeway-golf-course

[Martin Toal]

I think the headline is a bit sensationalist. There is no superego blowhard at the centre of this and there is a lot of local golf support for it. It is the job of the National Trust to push back against these, but the NI Assembly will decide the outcome. I would be astonished if they didn't agree.

It is a terrific site and would really put the area at the top of the list of destinations in Ireland.

[Jon Wiggett]

The arguments on both sides are valid. If it involves altering/destroying an important natural site then IMHO it should not be allowed but if it does not then why not let it happen. It will be interesting to see how this developes,

Jon

[Ronald Montesano]

Hanna and Kidd don't have massive egos? Isn't that a requirement for the business?

[Paul Gray]

As a Guardian reader I found the following quote to be somewhat presumptuous and seemingly written by someone that equates golf to what they catch a glimpse of once a year at Augusta:

The development would see a desolate place of dunes and scrub that looks out to where the North Atlantic melds with the Irish Sea replaced by lush greens and a labour-intensive landscape, at odds with the natural environment.

My initial gut reaction is very much in keeping with that of Martin and Jon. I will watch this space with interest but don't currently foresee a Trump like scenario. For now I'll assert that Kidd's understanding of this particular part of the planet is such that he won't go far wrong. I stand to be corrected.

[Tom_Doak]

For now I'll assert that Kidd's understanding of this particular part of the planet is such that he won't go far wrong. I stand to be corrected.

Is that the understanding he showed at Machrihanish Dunes or the understanding he showed at The Castle Course?  Different ground rules can lead to different approaches.

For the record, I have no problem with a golf course being built on that site.  The argument that dunes are not a natural environment for a golf course is pretty crazy to me.

[Tony_Muldoon]

It saddens me that we have no journalists left and it seems to me this is another example of  the media reporting everything from Press Releases.  The National Trust has set out it's position and in theory I wouldn't want a new Hotel  500m from a world heritage site.  But which part of the development will be there, possibly only a green and a tee box, a length of fairway? In this case you walk steeply down to the rock features and it’s highly unlikely any part of the course will be visible form down there. Q  Why does the journalist not go into this a little deeper.  A The paper has no resources because we all read their website for free. 


However I can tell you that as of my last visit there  in 2008, the area surrounding the Giant’s Causeway  it's not an area of beauty at all. There's a crappy old pub and a tacky tourist shop just as you turn off the main road.  Almost any new building there would improve the first impression.

I've said it many times before, but Ireland has had some of the best virgin linksland turned into golf courses in the past 30 years and there's not an undisputed home run amongst them.  I'm offering to pull the trigger myself if Kidd screws up this job.  Some of those other sites were pretty extreme but this seems to me to be a much more gently rolling dunesy landscape.  I am hopeful but I'd never have chosen Kidd based on his resume.

Anyway I wish Mr Hanna all the luck in the world with this one.   If he gets it through he should make a mint out of it as he'll be creating a new golf course, hotel and 75 accommodation units with only 360 jobs.  Trump expects to make money from his development and he's going to have a wage bill of 5000 to pay!

[Bill_McBride]

Dunluce Castle would make a great clubhouse. 

[Jonathan Mallard]

Do we know exactly where the course will be going? I didn't see anything that looked like a link to that on the Guardian site.

[Adam Lawrence]

Jonathan - if you find the Giant's Causeway on Google Earth and follow the coastline west you'll find a cove with a sandy beach and an area of dunes behind it. That's Runkerry Bay, and where the golf course is going. There is a small course on the other side of the river, of which I know nothing. My understanding,though, is that not all of the course is within the virgin dunes, and that some will go on the farmland nearer the road nod Bushmills village.

Brian, Ali Hanna has been working on this project for many years - he owns a small hotel nearby - and it was mired in the planning system for over a decade. As far as I am aware, David has been the architect on the project for all that time - certainly the planning documents that were filed way back were from DMK.

The NI Executive granted the planning consent earlier in the year, whereupon an appeal was filed by the National Trust.

I am led to believe that Mr Hanna is seeking outside investment, and that at least one big name in the development world is showing or has shown serious interest.

Adam

[Jonathan Mallard]

When I've trolled around looking for unspoilt dunesland, the best I've found is immediately north of and adjacent to Royal County Down.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, if the golf course is in a buffer zone of the world heritage site, then that pretty much seals the deal. You can't build stuff in a buffer zone without risking to lose your world heritage designation. The Elbe Valley near Dresden lost it, after they built a new bridge across the river in a buffer zone.

Ulrich

[Tony_Muldoon]

Well, if the golf course is in a buffer zone of the world heritage site, then that pretty much seals the deal. You can't build stuff in a buffer zone without risking to lose your world heritage designation. The Elbe Valley near Dresden lost it, after they built a new bridge across the river in a buffer zone.

Ulrich

Ulrich I'd never heard about that. Surely if the following is correct the four lane bridge was bang in the middle of the site and not in the buffer zone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_UNESCO_World_Heritage_Sites

I'd still like to know what exactly it is that is planned in the buffer zone.



The hotel and new course can only increase the profile of the area as a top end golf destination. Portrush and Portstewart are within 20 minutes.   However the economy has stalled badly since the recession and with (from memory) 50% of jobs in Northern Ireland being in the public sector unemployment is predicted to rise further.  The local politicians will do all they can to support this.


Adam not like you to be coy.     Mike Keiser publicly listed this as one of the areas he planned to visit in Ireland in 2012.

[Jack_Marr]

https://maps.google.com/?ll=55.22065,-6.53055&z=16&t=h

[Paul Gray]

For now I'll assert that Kidd's understanding of this particular part of the planet is such that he won't go far wrong. I stand to be corrected.

Is that the understanding he showed at Machrihanish Dunes or the understanding he showed at The Castle Course?  Different ground rules can lead to different approaches.
I was referring solely to environmental factors, both having ultimately received the GEO cert. Correct me if I'm wrong. I dare say, being pretty new to the site, I've missed a highly charged debate here about one or the other. 

For the record, I have no problem with a golf course being built on that site. The argument that dunes are not a natural environment for a golf course is pretty crazy to me.
+1

[Ally Mcintosh]

+1 on Tony re- journalism... There isn't really any news here, is there? We've had a few threads on GCA about this project and I presumed that it finally got planning permission at least in part because it might help Portrush regain The Open with some much needed top-end accommodation...

[Jon Wiggett]

Looking at the google image, there is a railway running through property which would exclude much of the property hard along the coastline from the project. It is difficult to work out if it is still in use as where the tracks cross the Bushfoot Golf Course they appear to have been removed but the station building looks to be in use judging by the car park.

Does anyone have any info?

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

It's a narrow gauge railway that operates on weekends in the summer. I assume an alternative solution would be found.

[Paul Gray]

Could even be a pleasant, rather old school addition, although quite possibly health and safety concerns would create a problem.

[Sean_A]

I don't know if this is a good idea or not.  What disappoints me most is the idea of chasing tourist money as an economic saviour.  Its a load of BS.  This project will do little for the economy.  If the government wants to get serious about improving the economy with good jobs they must find ways for companies making high tech products to want to locate in NI.  To create numerous good jobs people have to make good shit.  Eventually, it is my hope anyway, that politicians and tax payers will figure this out.

Ciao

[David Kelly]

+1 on Tony re- journalism... There isn't really any news here, is there? We've had a few threads on GCA about this project and I presumed that it finally got planning permission at least in part because it might help Portrush regain The Open with some much needed top-end accommodation...

Was just talking with someone this morning about how the history of newspaper reporting on golf course development has basically just been the rewriting of press releases.

Will money for Kidd's return visit to fix the course a year after opening be put into the initial budget?

[Matthew Hunt]

The national trust is just being overly fussy about this one. The golf course will be allowed but knowing the ministers style I suspect he will slightly limit slightly the residential development as a compromise. The land is pretty good for golf and they should be aiming for a World Top 100 course, but its not as good as the land that Jonathan alludes to.

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - its strange how the other place in Scotland is of "national economic importance"!

The danger of relying on the tourist dollar is the north American market is extremely volatile around international events. A large bomb in Berlin or active shooter in Milan would be enough to have a lot of tourists cancelling their trips to Europe. Sadly in Ulster there are still a handful of idiots who having seen the successes of IRA/Sinn Fein want to return to the bomb and bullet.

You are right that economic success in Ulster will be better driven on making things rather than services.

Building a golf course is hardly going to impact to the same extent as a motorway and bridge.

[Adam Lawrence]

True, of course, but not really comparable - private money of this kind is unlikely to be invested in road construction!

Also, the gorilla in the room is the possibility of a Portrush Open, which would have a _huge_ impact on the local economy. For that to happen, the more good hotels in the vicinity the better (better roads would help too, of course!)

[Jon Wiggett]

I suspect a lot would depend on what this project wants to be. If it is a five star resort the it is achievable without having an a detrimental impact on the landscape. If however it is a Monument to the owner's ego (as in some cases) then it must have an impact.
I wonder if National Trust were offered a shiny new visitor center if they would drop their objections

As for impact on the economy. It won't on it own have a big impact but it is a sign of confidence in an aea that really needs it. Even though the Inverness area was doing quite well, Castle Stuart and the Scottish Open have had a noticable impact on the local golfing economy from a tourist point of view

Jon