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Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom Doak's Blue Course at Streamsong Resort is exceptional.  From the first tee to the final putt, the golfer is challenged to think his way around the golf course as the direct line is rarely the ideal play.  The Coore & Crenshaw Red Course is routed through larger dunes and more prevalent water hazards, perhaps making it a slightly more complicated site, but it is Doak's routing that is the more comfortable one.    Doak's routing is near flawless with very short green to tee walks, constant changes in direction, and an ability to move the golfer up and down elevation with ease.  The 1st tee, sited at the top of a 60 foot high (?) dune is something of a curious decision, but as Doak noted in an earlier thread the additional length was needed to prevent golfers from waiting for the first green to clear.  And, the view is exceptional.  The other curiosity is the decision to route the par-3 7th such that the golfer walks to the green and near back to the tee.  

Tie-ins on both golf courses are perfect.  Transitions from green to fairway to bunker to sandy waste area to dunes to native grasses to water hazards are so natural that one wonders whether these golf courses have been here forever.  

Bunker shaping will be familiar to fans of Doak and/or Coore & Crenshaw.  

Doak's greens drape perfectly on the land.  There is a convexity to the undulations on some greens that is unlike anything I have ever seen before.  On the Red Course, bold and broad internal contours will have misplayed shots roll slowly and steadily away from their targets.  On the Blue Course, shots landing on the wrong part of the green, especially if from the wrong angle will be propelled in directions the golfer had not considered.  The Red Course is overt in its penalties, the blue course subtle; but I'm not convinced the Blue Course is any easier.

Scorecard Information





Unlike the 470 yard behemoth of a par-4 on the Red, Doak eases the golfer into the round, offering the opportunity to hit less than driver from the elevated first tee.  The width of the 1st fairway is probably 40 yards at its narrowest, and where the option to bailout right is available, the fairway widens to about 100 yards.  




Golfers on the 1st tee help to give a sense of scale.




Aggressive tee shots down the centre/left will be rewarded with a simple pitch.  Approaching from the right, though from the fairway, is a difficult task requiring a blind approach over a dune to a green that falls off on the left.






The second is a 550 yard par-5 and golfers long enough to reach this green in two will want to carry the fairway bunker (270 yards) to find a speed-slot.




Along with the 2nd shot on the par-5 9th, the 2nd shot here is one of the two dullest on the course.  Those laying-up are presented with ample fairway and no obvious reason to aim anywhere but the centre.  Much of the green is hidden from view behind the left bunker, though it is a miss to the right that will cause the real trouble.






The third hole starts a tremendous stretch of golf.  A green set boldly on a plateau is in view from the tee and begs the golfer to play near the hazard line.  




A bold tee shot up the left leaves a simple approach to a blind putting surface though shots missing the plateau right will run a very long way from the hole.



« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 05:12:43 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
You say that the 2nd shot on #2 is dull. Can you give us an idea why? The image from the tee suggests that there are plentiful fairway bunkers to create interest and draw attention. Thanks in advance; I'll hang up and listen.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
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~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
You say that the 2nd shot on #2 is dull. Can you give us an idea why? The image from the tee suggests that there are plentiful fairway bunkers to create interest and draw attention. Thanks in advance; I'll hang up and listen.

Ron, there are features that will impact play after a poor tee shot -- a waste area that cuts into the fairway about 160 yards from the green and a fall-off on the right side of the fairway about 140 yards short of the green -- but for the golfer that hits a good tee shot and is unable to reach the green there is little in the way of options... hit it straight as far as you feel comfortable.

Kyle Harris

Were there two people behind the first green making an irrigation repair?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:13:38 AM by Kyle Harris »

Kyle Harris

   .
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:12:08 AM by Kyle Harris »

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kyle, how much work will it be to keep the vegetation on the edge of the lake in check so that you keep the views of the third green from the tees? This is a sigificant problem on a lot of the Dutch polder courses with reeds etc. and I would expect a lot more growth in the hotter climate of Florida.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Kyle, how much work will it be to keep the vegetation on the edge of the lake in check so that you keep the views of the third green from the tees? This is a sigificant problem on a lot of the Dutch polder courses with reeds etc. and I would expect a lot more growth in the hotter climate of Florida.

Frank:

The vegetation along the lake there is already pretty tall ... but the edge of the fairway is a good five feet higher than the water, so it doesn't seem in too much danger of being obscured.  I will wait for Kyle's answer, but as far as I could tell during the two years of construction, the plants in the water were not growing much and wouldn't need much maintenance.  (Of course, the water in the pond was quite a bit lower for one of those years, we had it pumped down to install the wet well and to do work around an adjacent lake, so I could have been fooled.)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
You say that the 2nd shot on #2 is dull. Can you give us an idea why? The image from the tee suggests that there are plentiful fairway bunkers to create interest and draw attention. Thanks in advance; I'll hang up and listen.

Ron, there are features that will impact play after a poor tee shot -- a waste area that cuts into the fairway about 160 yards from the green and a fall-off on the right side of the fairway about 140 yards short of the green -- but for the golfer that hits a good tee shot and is unable to reach the green there is little in the way of options... hit it straight as far as you feel comfortable.

Mark:

Your definition of a poor tee shot must be different than mine.  Long hitters who play safely left can get down near some mounds in the corner that will impact their ability to hit a long second shot to the green ... it happened to one of the writers I played with on my last trip.  For me, the little sandy ridge that comes in from the left proves very annoying if I haven't hit a pretty good drive.  I think that hole is going to take a lot of playing to figure out.  For what it's worth, we spent more time adjusting the features there than on any other hole.

Mike Sweeney

You say that the 2nd shot on #2 is dull. Can you give us an idea why? The image from the tee suggests that there are plentiful fairway bunkers to create interest and draw attention. Thanks in advance; I'll hang up and listen.

Ron, there are features that will impact play after a poor tee shot -- a waste area that cuts into the fairway about 160 yards from the green and a fall-off on the right side of the fairway about 140 yards short of the green -- but for the golfer that hits a good tee shot and is unable to reach the green there is little in the way of options... hit it straight as far as you feel comfortable.

Mark:

Your definition of a poor tee shot must be different than mine.  Long hitters who play safely left can get down near some mounds in the corner that will impact their ability to hit a long second shot to the green ... it happened to one of the writers I played with on my last trip.  For me, the little sandy ridge that comes in from the left proves very annoying if I haven't hit a pretty good drive.  I think that hole is going to take a lot of playing to figure out.  For what it's worth, we spent more time adjusting the features there than on any other hole.

Pete was left of me and had no shot to the green, I would have needed to thread a perfect 3 wood with a draw to nuzzle it near the green, so I opted to play a hybrid/wedge combination. It's a two shot hole possibility for longer players. I really like this hole as it forced us to "tack" our way to the hole.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
You say that the 2nd shot on #2 is dull. Can you give us an idea why? The image from the tee suggests that there are plentiful fairway bunkers to create interest and draw attention. Thanks in advance; I'll hang up and listen.

Ron, there are features that will impact play after a poor tee shot -- a waste area that cuts into the fairway about 160 yards from the green and a fall-off on the right side of the fairway about 140 yards short of the green -- but for the golfer that hits a good tee shot and is unable to reach the green there is little in the way of options... hit it straight as far as you feel comfortable.

Mark:

Your definition of a poor tee shot must be different than mine.  Long hitters who play safely left can get down near some mounds in the corner that will impact their ability to hit a long second shot to the green ... it happened to one of the writers I played with on my last trip.  For me, the little sandy ridge that comes in from the left proves very annoying if I haven't hit a pretty good drive.  I think that hole is going to take a lot of playing to figure out.  For what it's worth, we spent more time adjusting the features there than on any other hole.

Tom, call it a limitation of only playing the hole once.  As a short-hitting low-handicapper I guess I described how the hole played for me.  

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Were there two people behind the first green making an irrigation repair?

Kyle, yes, on 1 Blue.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
"the plants in the water were not growing much and wouldn't need much maintenance."

makes me ask what might be in the water...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
"the plants in the water were not growing much and wouldn't need much maintenance."

makes me ask what might be in the water...

Alligators!

And lots of birds.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
how many heads do the alligators have? how many eyes for the birds?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
how many heads do the alligators have? how many eyes for the birds?

Hey, Ronald, you're from Buffalo, and we know you folks are a little sensitive about the whole Love Canal thing.

But my clients might be a little sensitive about you making such statements with absolutely no basis.  The pond in question is the irrigation lake for the golf course.  They water-test it all the time.  There's nothing wrong with the water quality at Streamsong.  All they've been doing there is digging out the phosphate from underground, not making chemicals.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Though not as blind, the tee shot over the corner of a dune may remind some golfers of the tee shot on Ballyneal's 6th hole.  With the pin in view, seemingly miles away, the temptation is strong to follow the Line of Instinct to play over/near the bunkering on the left.  Those that can resist the urge to play left will find ample fairway grass to the right, and though the approach is longer from there, the angle is preferred.




Playing back into the wind (the first into the wind approach on the course), the approach on the 4th is an intimidating one with no forgiveness for a shot that misses short.  Bunkering some 50 yards beyond the green serve to further intimidate, though there are acres of turf beyond the green.




Upon cresting the hill, I was surprised at both the size and shape of this green.  The green looks to be almost a perfect circle, with a single ridge cutting across it 2/3 the way back.  It is also a very small target given the difficulty of the approach.  From the fairway, I though the green would extend farther to the right.




Perhaps an all-world short par-3 at the 5th.  120 yards to the centre of the green (90 front, 150 back), this is a birdie hole, right? Maybe.  Playing downwind to a green that falls away from the tee and with no definition on the green's left side make this is a testing proposition.  Raised bunkering serves to hide a good portion of the putting surface, including the very fun pin pictured, which is set in a bowl and can be attacked many different ways.




The fall-off left of the green is nerve-wracking and many golfers will steer away from it towards the bunkering.  Finding a bunker is the preferred miss, as a ball landing on this very tilted fairway cut area will carom down towards the next tee leaving a testing recovery.




From behind the gentle rolls in the 5th green can be seen.  More obvious is the front-to-back tilt.




The 6th is a short par-4 that is perhaps driveable in the right wind conditions.  For most, strategy will be dictated by a centreline bunker 220 yards from the Black tee.




A pair of Dolly Parton-like mounds separate a right shelf in the green from the lower left portion.  Only in discussion of Mike Nuzzo's Wolf Point have I seen convexity of green undulations as a topic of interest.  The 6th green is one of several on the Blue that should be used in the discussion of convexity.  An anecdote from my day of play: The angle/distance of approach is vital.  The green dictates strategy all the way back to the tee.  I played to the wide-side of the bunker.  The approach from there to a right pin (which I had) must be played across the convex mounds.  From the angle I played, the demand for precision is high.  I hit my wedge shot a touch fat -- probably would have been a 30 foot putt if it were a flat green -- and the ball landed on the top of the mound and darted forward and left through the green, through the fairway cut and into the sandy waste area.  From the appropriate angle this would not have happened.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
They look more like pectoral muscles than Dolly's hooters, from my flattened-photo perspective.

How did that short par three play, in terms of a runner? Can you hit a slider in there and have it skip, or do you have to carry it to all locations on that enormous green?

Is the front of the 6th green open?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
They look more like pectoral muscles than Dolly's hooters, from my flattened-photo perspective.

They're big humps, trust me.

How did that short par three play, in terms of a runner? Can you hit a slider in there and have it skip, or do you have to carry it to all locations on that enormous green?

Hard to hit a slider downwind with a wedge.  Runner is a very viable option, though you probably need to play the hole a few times to get an understanding of how to use the contours to your advantage.  If you look at the last picture you could see where my tee shot ended up.  I two-putted by putting up into the fringe beyond the pin and having it come back to the hole... fun stuff.

Is the front of the 6th green open?

Yes, wide open.  The picture is taken from the left edge of the green (pictures taken from the fairway and into the sun failed to show the contours)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
So you wouldn't punch a 7 or 8 iron with a half swing and try to make it cut, or something? How was the wind in that corner of the course? I'm thinking that a high wedge to a monstrous green would be tough to do...did you knock it down?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
So you wouldn't punch a 7 or 8 iron with a half swing and try to make it cut, or something? How was the wind in that corner of the course? I'm thinking that a high wedge to a monstrous green would be tough to do...did you knock it down?

Ron, it might work, but it would be hard to stop.  The pin was back 20.  I hit a normal wedge (about 120) and watched it trundle all the way to near the back of the green (almost 150).

Don_Mahaffey

I walked the Doak routing before work began (they had dragged a bush hog thru hole corridors) and based on the raw land, I really liked the 4th - 6th stretch of holes. Loved 4 approach, liked how 5 sat on the ridge and I liked the way the 6th green/approach had a left to right cant (if I'm remembering correctly). In the photos the 6th green contours look interesting. I found the 4th and 5th, in the raw stages at least, and especially the 4th, to be fairly bold holes of a style you don't see often in modern architecture.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hints of Alison's Sea Island perhaps?

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
They look more like pectoral muscles than Dolly's hooters, from my flattened-photo perspective.


Actually, they most resemble some finely matched cheeks so to speak.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sheehy, would Shivas Irons amend his statement to "the game is about the walking, except for green to tee"?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cool, so the wedge is no guaranteed stop. Were you playing downwind on #5 or is it that firm/droop?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!