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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #100 on: December 27, 2012, 11:56:21 AM »
I haven't read through the entries closely so apologies if this has been covered. I don't really care about having you revisit courses in the book. People fail to understand the purpose of the Doak Scale -- my own feeling is scored once, no need to score again because from a "travel motivation" standpoint a) not much is going to change and b) the things that tend to change are maintenance related and the book makes abundantly clear that's of secondary importance. For starters, see: Westward Ho! and The Addington.

Well, I should make a caveat: I can see the scores changing depending on what courses have been added to or subtracted from the profiled courses' neighborhoods. It would be interesting to see which course(s) have been "hurt" the most by new construction.

What I would like to see:

1)
A section on suggested itineraries or at least pairings / groupings. I find the Doak Scale very useful as a measure of the "travel imperative" but what would be interesting would be a calculus of travel. Drop everything and call my travel agent to play a 10, sure. What if there are two 8s and a 6 or one 9 and two 7s in close proximity? Then what? When should I try to play the same course again and how many times? If I had 10 rounds to split, how should I split them? Worse, if I had 5 rounds, how should I split those?

There are hints and inferences scattered throughout the book that get at this, such as knowing nothing else comes close in #2's neighborhood, Stonewall needing to succeed in a tough neighborhood, and Ganton and Woodhall Spa getting lumped together just like every other guide / person in the world seems to want to do.

(The Doak Scale is somewhat helpful, yes: I mean, we all know not to play any "relief courses" unless we're shut out on the main one, right?)

2)
More on Asia. There's still plenty I need to play, but based on what I've played across the continent I no longer have much motivation to make an effort to see anything. I'm not sure that's a "problem" given playing any course in Asia requires motivation: it is a pain in the butt to make it happen. I should make an effort in Japan, I know...well, I guess I should.

3)
New entries in the gazetteer involving minimalism. For example:
an assessment of "classic" courses in light of minimalist courses that have been built post publication
Most-influential "classic" designs

The actual construction of meaningful numbers of minimalist courses is one of the biggest developments since publication, yes?

4)
A "Gourmet's Choice"-type writeup on Ganton. I don't care about the Doak Scale rating, a re-rating, whether it's the "most" this or the "least" that. You don't have to put it in Gourmet's Choice or take a course out of your list for Ganton. I don't care if you love it, hate it, whatever. None of that bullshit.

I just want to know what about that course you think is worthy of study and play, so I'd like to read a proper-length essay documenting your thoughts. If Rye is the exception that proves the rule of nothing great coming from a committee, then what is Ganton? What of its architectural lineage? Is it a great 17-hole course or a great 18-hole course? Can a course like Ganton be great with that pond? Am I right to find ponds at courses like Ganton horrific blots? How many rounds do dolts like us regular golfers need to make a proper judgment about this course?

How is the course's rhythm and routing? What do you make of each nine containing short 4s? What holes if any deserve three bangs? Is 18 a bang, a question mark or both? Is 17 a par 3 or a par 4? What's your take on the bunker outside the dogleg on 12? Where is Mackenzie's hand evident? The 14th hole? The 7th green complex? Maybe one for the gazeetteer: how did Pandy rate as a hazard in its day?

And just why the heck is Ganton called a "marooned links"? What can we take away from that discussion?

Preferably, the writeup would contain no references or even inferences to Woodhall Spa. If you must compare, any links in general and Royal Worlington and Rye in particular are ok.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2012, 01:10:59 PM »
For my tastes, there has been too much interesting work done in terms of new courses since the initial publication of the CG to go back and revisit courses that have undergone renovations that, as Tom notes, may not have dramatically changed the nature of the holes. I might make an exception for Oakmont, but that's about it.

With that said, and limited to five (with the additional caveat that I assume none of the following made it into the initial CG), I'd suggest these, in no particular order or geographic symmetry:

-- Wild Horse

-- Ballyhack

-- Cabot Links

-- Hidden Creek

-- French Lick (Dye)

All different architects, and all on varied pieces of land.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2012, 01:13:14 PM »
Deal I can't see anyway that there's a 3 point difference between itt and Rye, nor 2 point difference with RSG.
Another to reveist Reigate Heath, they've changed holes 6-8 so maybe now it is the best 9 holer.


Courses to include, Sandy Lodge (might make them appreciate what's been taken away) and  another vote for Huntercombe.

Looking at the guide I also find missing Portstewart and Portmarnock Links. 

Dooks has been lengthened and re greened and you liked the first version, did you manage to get back?


« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 01:32:15 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2012, 01:20:08 PM »
I will not mention any courses I know you have seen by now.
Perhaps these are of interest:
Ravenstein, Sart Tilman, Oitavos, Villa d'Este, Houthalen.(all cont. Europe)

I had never seen the name "Houthalen" before so I thought I should look it up.  Turns out this is another name for Limburg G & CC in Belgium, which I've never seen mentioned on this site, but which my friend Masa from Japan nominated as one of THE best courses in Europe -- he had it as a 7 on the Doak scale.  So, it has now moved up another notch on my list of places to see.

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2012, 01:28:45 PM »
Tom - I only perused your first guide at a Tom Paul outing a few years back, but found it a great read (for the limited time I had it). In addition to the already mentioned re-look at Aronimink, I would also get a kick out of your review of two other favorite courses of mine: Yahnundasis (Travis - New Hartford, NY) and Teugega (Ross - Rome, NY)
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2012, 01:40:07 PM »
Tom,

I think I've written this before, but I'll repost.  It would be cool to see just one page featuring a list of the 5-10 best military courses.  Most of them were designed between the late 50's and the mid-70's, so most are in the what we now call the doldrums of golf design.  However, I think Eisenhower Blue at USAFA is one of the purest (least messed with) Robert Trent Jones courses.  He's also a Cornell alumnus in case you didn't know.   ;D

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2012, 03:18:25 PM »
I will not mention any courses I know you have seen by now.
Perhaps these are of interest:
Ravenstein, Sart Tilman, Oitavos, Villa d'Este, Houthalen.(all cont. Europe)

I had never seen the name "Houthalen" before so I thought I should look it up.  Turns out this is another name for Limburg G & CC in Belgium, which I've never seen mentioned on this site, but which my friend Masa from Japan nominated as one of THE best courses in Europe -- he had it as a 7 on the Doak scale.  So, it has now moved up another notch on my list of places to see.

Houthalen and Sart-Tilman as well as Spa are only some 30 40 minutes travel from each other. Houthalen being halfway between the two and Eindhoven. I am not sure it is a 7, but the finish of both the front 9 and back 9 are spectacular to say the least.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 03:20:28 PM by Cristian Willaert »

Matt Ingraham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2012, 12:45:58 PM »
For purely selfish I would love to hear your thoughts on Omaha CC.  It is one of the best, if not the best, parkland style course in the Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa region.  There is some debate over who was the original GCA.  Maxwell oversaw a redo of a few holes and greens in the 1950s and Foster oversaw a total restoration in the mid 2000s. 

I am looking forward to the new guide.

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #108 on: December 29, 2012, 03:44:20 PM »
Kankakee Elks  (Langford & Moreau)
WEst Bend, Wisconsin  (Langford)

Shady Oaks  (RTJ)
Green Lakes  (RTJ)

Rogell  !!  Bendelow and Ross  MI.


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2012, 05:09:24 PM »

WEst Bend, Wisconsin  (Langford)





1/2 Langford, half not. But the half that is -- is great. Site of the legendary story about Pete Dye walking off the course after playing the front nine and saying he'd played the most wonderful nine holes of Raynor he'd ever seen (or something to that effect).


Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2012, 08:22:30 PM »
Tom,
In the copy of the Guide I have, Virginia doesn't get much attention .... suggestions
on the quirky side ... Lambert's Point , a Lester George nine holer in Norfolk next to the Elizabeth River
Sewell's Point, a supposedly older Ross, (have heard it has some Flynn), but cheap and part of the Naval Base in Norfolk, the course has grown on me a bit
Pete Dye's River Course in Radford, a stunning site that wraps around a bend of the New River

and finally your own Riverfront ... a course that might stimulate a greater discussion of how one might take into consideration a development course versus a course that is clearly over treed.  What do you look at and what do you ignore?

I will pick you up at the Airport.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2012, 11:57:34 AM »

WEst Bend, Wisconsin  (Langford)





1/2 Langford, half not. But the half that is -- is great. Site of the legendary story about Pete Dye walking off the course after playing the front nine and saying he'd played the most wonderful nine holes of Raynor he'd ever seen (or something to that effect).



He also said "don't touch the front nine, its wonderful" Unfortunately some members took that literally and used the quote to block restoration efforts. Finally I called him and he said for sure you should restore it. Even sent Tim Liddy over to take a look.

Giles Payne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2013, 12:35:41 PM »
I didn't realise that Ganton had not been done - another vote for Ganton - and another ........

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2013, 01:45:41 PM »
Clear Creek Tahoe

The California Golf Club of San Francisco

Dismal River

Sebonack

MPCC-Shore

I thought Clear Creek was an NLE, did someone buy it?  I tried to play there in July of this year and it was closed.


From what I've heard, Clear Creek will reopen this year.   

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2013, 01:48:41 PM »
I'll throw a 3rd vote in for Aronimink.  In Nor Cal, i'd nominate:

Olympic Club - Lake
Olympic Club - Ocean (interested to see how low a number it would receive)
Cal Club
Meadow Club



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2013, 07:50:29 PM »
Has anyone mentioned Wine Valley and Indian Canyon? It seems our Spokane reporter has been missing in action for some while.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #116 on: January 05, 2013, 09:54:23 AM »
Is  Davenport (Iowa) CC in the original?  If not...

Brian Colbert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #117 on: January 05, 2013, 07:53:58 PM »
Tom,

I think I've written this before, but I'll repost.  It would be cool to see just one page featuring a list of the 5-10 best military courses.  Most of them were designed between the late 50's and the mid-70's, so most are in the what we now call the doldrums of golf design.  However, I think Eisenhower Blue at USAFA is one of the purest (least messed with) Robert Trent Jones courses.  He's also a Cornell alumnus in case you didn't know.   ;D

Navy has a fantastic William Flynn course with a ton of interest. I think this is a cool idea.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #118 on: January 05, 2013, 08:01:35 PM »
Tom,

I think Sleepy Hollow (Stanley Thompson, outside of Cleveland) is one worth taking a look at if you are in the area.  I also would be happy to host you at Firestone to get your thoughts on the North (Fazio), my personal favorite of the three courses despite its more well known brethren.  Pat Mucci is a recent fan as well.

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #119 on: January 06, 2013, 12:19:47 AM »
On a trip to Streamsong perhaps a trip to Calusa Pines down in Naples could be squeezed in for the new guide. I would love to hear your thoughts especially post working on the Streamsong site and the comparison of unintentional man-made dunes and intentional man-made dunes.
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #120 on: January 06, 2013, 10:16:53 AM »
Tom:

I guess I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts on Loch Lomond.  Have you seen it?

Ryan

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #121 on: January 06, 2013, 03:35:32 PM »
I just got a copy of the confidential guide! Still excitedly plowing through it.

Now that I can see what has been covered in the first edition, I thought I'd chime in.

I will stick to courses in my neck of the woods, which, granted, is generally well covered:
- Wykagyl (my home course - I am biased but obviously like it a lot!)
- Montauk Downs (mentioned as one Mr. Doak didn't make it to in the first guide - notwithstanding a brutally long round, I really enjoyed a round there last summer, thought it had a lot of interesting holes)
- I would be curious how Mr. Doak would grade Stonewall North vs. Old - I think the Old is considered the "favored" members' course, but think the North may actually be more interesting. And would the Old still make his "Gourmet's Choice"?  (As a side note, I thought Mr. Doak did a great job of describing the intimate feeling of Stonewall the club, in addition to articulating the virtues of the course itself)
- after that I would be interested in his thoughts on the new Hamptons courses (Friar's, East Hampton, The Bridge, and his own Sebonack) and how these stack up against the old greats.  I realize these have been discussed at great length here (with Tom chiming in at times) but am curious to see a full evaluation and "grade"

Kevin

Clyde Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #122 on: January 06, 2013, 05:55:57 PM »
Tom:

With talk of the Himalayan Golf Course...Have you seen much golf in India?

The Royal Calcutta Golf Club, as the oldest club outside of the British Isles, is obviously historically significant, but i can't think of many others?

India has a pretty strong golf history, dating back to colonial days, and with a new wave of golf course development forecast (already taking place?) it would be interesting to know how influential the early (military?) courses/existing golfing culture has been in shaping the newer courses over there? (I guess very little, but you never know...)

Cheers,

Clyde

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #123 on: January 06, 2013, 06:12:17 PM »
Tom,
If you are coming to Long Island, I would like to see what your thoughts were on the changes at Nassau CC, Southampton GC, Atlantic and The Bridge.
A couple would be first entries, a couple would be your take on the chnages.

John Ezekowitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #124 on: January 06, 2013, 08:12:32 PM »
Tom,
If you are coming to Long Island, I would like to see what your thoughts were on the changes at Nassau CC, Southampton GC, Atlantic and The Bridge.
A couple would be first entries, a couple would be your take on the chnages.

Keith, what changes have been made at Atlantic? I played there this summer and enjoyed it a lot. Especially liked the short par 3 on the back (11th or 12th?).