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Jud_T

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Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2012, 05:36:20 PM »
Has the rating criteria changed at all over the intervening years?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Steffey

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Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2012, 06:42:11 PM »
Tom,

Wannamoisett
Sunnehanna

Thanks.

jonathan_becker

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Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2012, 06:59:51 PM »
Canton Brookside
The Country Club Pepper Pike
Friar's Head
Los Angeles CC North

Emile Bonfiglio

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Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2012, 07:03:47 PM »
My Oregon requests would be Waverley, Both Pronghorn courses, Tetherow and Eugene CC.
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Kyle Harris

Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2012, 07:06:04 PM »
Huntingdon Valley and Manufacturers' are both significantly restored since the early 90's. I think worth another look.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2012, 07:23:55 PM »
Clear Creek Tahoe

The California Golf Club of San Francisco

Dismal River

Sebonack

MPCC-Shore
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Garland Bayley

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Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2012, 07:48:08 PM »
Perranporth and Cullen
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

J_ Crisham

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Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2012, 08:56:52 PM »
Most for me are significant renos, in no particular order:
                            Flossmoor CC
                            Beverly CC
                            Quaker Ridge
                            The Cal Club
                            Charles River- one hell of a sleeper that never gets mentioned here!Would be top 7 if in Chicago IMO
                            The Valley Club
                            Blue Mound
                            Forest Creek North( would be rated higher if not a Fazio IMO)
                            Mountain Ridge- found it better than Somerset Hills and very much on a par with Plainfield   
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 09:28:18 PM by Jack Crisham »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2012, 08:59:05 PM »
With all the great restoration work that's been done to so many clubs I would like to see where you put Maidstone. 

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2012, 09:10:06 PM »
my oregon picks outside of Bandon resort

Bandon Crossings
Central Oregon Pronghorn Fazio, Juniper.  , Black Butte-Glaze Meadow is a Fought rebuild which I haven't seen Since you're in the area Crosswater, Tetherow, Broken Top and Pronghorn Nicklaus ae the big-boned views.
Astoria is out of the way from everything else,  but its use of the dunes is outstanding.

I don't think that Eugene has measureably changed since the CG. Waverley has improved with the remodel, but doesn't really pop up the ratings. If only Elkhorn Valley had remained a 9 holer. Langdon Farms is a great example of a good course with too much containment mounding.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2012, 09:16:17 PM »
I am curious to see what you think of Musgrove Mill.  I think it is Palmer's most inventive course.
Ballyhack
I'll also add my voice to Beau Desert.   
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2012, 09:19:12 PM »
I'm interested in seeing your thoughts on routing detailed somewhere on the book.  I thought your introduction in the last book was excellent, but building out some more thoughts on routing and working with the land given would be neat.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2012, 09:21:43 PM »
most restorations are tweaks ... they seldom uncover a great hole that had been so covered up that I didn't notice it "before".  I've done a fair number of restorations myself, but not many of them would be likely to result in a higher Doak scale rating -- Yeamans Hall for sure, because it was so degraded prior to our work.  At most, others would push a course that might have been between a 6 and a 7 over the top.

Tom,

That makes perfect sense. But Mountain Ridge happens to be a course that I have always felt was underrated by most, and it has always been in my top 5 in New Jersey. I would love to see how you would rate it. At the very least, it is worth a round now that Pat Mucci is a member!

Given all the time you have spent on Long Island, is it safe to assume that you will include Friars Head?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2012, 09:39:42 PM »
Based on memory of what is in the CG, here is a Twin Cities list:

Old:
Oak Ridge CC
Town & Country

New:
Spring Hill (a polarizing Fazio)
Windsong Farm
Stoneridge

I will take a look at the book and edit at some point.

Tom,

I, like Jason, don't have my Confidential Guide handy right now but I would also like to see an expansion of the book's Minnesota listings. I'm not sure Interlachen CC has been changed enough (outside of some tree removal, bunker renovation, and a few tees) to warrant a new trip...but I think Minikahda has in the huge amount of work done. Jason's list above is certainly a good start...Oak Ridge has a very very good stretch of holes from #11-#17... Town & Country Club (my home course) is super quirky, old (1888), unique, fun but almost completely under the radar... In addition to Jason's list, I would of been really interested to hear what you thought of Keller GC in St. Paul mostly because it was a pretty neat golf course with features not seen on Public golf courses anymore but Richard Mandell is renovating the course right now. I also think Minneapolis Golf Club (Park/Ross/Prichard) would be worth checking out as would North Oaks (Stanly Thomson/Tom Leahman) and Edina CC (in the original, but it's been extensively redone by Leahman).

Generally speaking, I think the Twin Cities area would be worth a visit for your updated Guide. There is a bunch of stuff in Chicago that's been redone over the years since you visited but probably isn't worth your time to see. However, one neat course you should make an effort to do see when in town working at Medinah next year is Glen View Club in Golf, IL...it's not a "9" but it has some great holes. I can't remember if you listed Old Elm but if you haven't that's another one you should make a serious effort to see. As much of a fan I am of Shepherd's Crook (Jud's recommendation) I would never tell you to take a few hours to see it if you haven't seen Glen View or Old Elm first. I still think of the Confidential Guide as a Guide to someone unfamiliar with an area...so I would rather you include the most worthy courses first...a Spring Valley or Shepherd's Crook would be something of a "deep cut" to me.

According to my copy Minnesota courses visited were from 93-95 and are as follows:

Edina CC
Golden Valley
Interlachen
Midland Hills
Minikahda
Northland
Rochester
Somerset
White Bear


A good start but I would say the bench strength is pretty great in the area.

Tom Doak,

Have you added or seen any more Minnesota course since 1995?
H.P.S.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2012, 09:42:15 PM »
3 from my part of the world-
 Kinloch NZ
Jacks Point
Wellington Golf Club

In Australia-
Peninsula North and South
Lost Farm

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2012, 09:54:56 PM »

Tom Doak,

Have you added or seen any more Minnesota course since 1995?

It must have been after 1995 that we consulted briefly at Woodhill, and did some of our work at White Bear Yacht Club.  But it's been a long time, and I've hardly seen any other courses.  I did make a trip to see The Quarry at Giant's Ridge a few years back, but otherwise, all I've seen of Minnesota has been the various concourses at MSP.

John Ezekowitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2012, 11:29:59 PM »
I'd like to second the vote for Wolf Point.

Geoff Chin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2012, 11:47:35 PM »
Second Peninsula North and South and Lost Farm
Commonwealth

Any plan to visit courses in SE Asia on transit to/from a trip to Aus/NZ?

Singapore Island CC SIME course
Laguna National GC World Classic
Sentosa GC - Serapong
Ria Bintan

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2012, 01:36:54 AM »
Keeping with the ROW flavour, I'll send Tom to South Africa to check out:

Royal Cape
Erinvale
Pinnacle Point
Fancourt Links
East London
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2012, 07:36:58 AM »
Somewhere in the cobwebs of my mind is the image of Jack Kerouac, standing in the rain in western New Jersey or eastern Pennsylvania, later in life, making an attempt to recreate his "On The Road" journeys. He looked at what was ahead, turned back and returned home. Some things cannot be revisited; too much has changed and its impact/influence differ. A new CG would be written by a different Tom Doak (despite potential promises) than the original. It will raise a conversation between young Tom D and middle Tom D, a dance across a 20-year divide.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2012, 08:03:18 AM »
I'll leave Rochester to John Lyon and southern Ontario to Mark Saltzaman/Frank Mastroianni. Here's my list for Tom.

Batavia, NY...Stafford Country Club (Travis) and Terry Hills (3 nines, 3 unique designers)

east of Buffalo...CC Buffalo (Ross), Park CC (Alison), Links of Ivy Ridge (committee) Diamond Hawk (Hurdzan/Fry) and Arrowhead (Witter)

south of Buffalo...Harvest Hill (Hurdzan/Fry) Ironwood (Witter) and Byrncliff (Tryon)

north of Buffalo...Sheridan Park (Harries) and Seneca Hickory Stick (RTJ 2, post-Chambers Bay awakening)
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2012, 10:07:46 AM »
Tom,

The more I think about what has been done over the years between, the more I want to ask, are you crazy?
There's so much to see and re-see, it strikes me as getting in the way of work and family.

and no ... I'm not sitting on a dozen copies of the CG  ;D

I'd certainly enjoy a new edition and will buy one, but man are you sure you have the time to do this?

Ian
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2012, 12:18:40 PM »
Tom, I have to say, having just received my copy of the Confidential Guide today (just in time for Christmas), thanks by the way, that I find it interesting as I peruse through it. Naturally, I'm going to look at the country/courses where I reside and compare your comments to those of US and UK/Ireland.

I can't but help to feel that The Netherlands was not really given enough attention. I'm sure time is a concern but with a handful of courses that are easily in the top 10 of continental Europe and every bit as good as 95% of the courses in the UK & Ireland as the guys who attend the upcoming BUDA in 2013 will find out.

The irony is that they are often created by some of the classic architects like Colt yet the landscape is equally if not more interesting.

The links courses including Noordwijkse are excellent, although Kennemer and Royal Hague only managed a 6 on your scale. I'd definitely say Noordwijkse, Den Pan and Eindhovensche should be covered in your new book. They are far too good not to be.

My 2 bits as my other home Oregon, I'm sure will get full coverage. I'd highly recommend trying to get out to that new, for your book, resort along the coast down near the California border. I understand it's worth the trip.

I can't say same for courses missed in the rest of continental Europe.

The other thing that will be really interesting is to see how much your opinion has changed in the nearly 20 years since you wrote this book or if it's even remotely similar. I'm certain even you will have gradually altered your ideas over such a long period of time with so much valuable experience gained.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 12:24:46 PM by David Davis »
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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2012, 04:11:58 PM »
 Devereux  Emmet:

Huntington
Glen Head
Mechanicville
Keney Park,  CT

By Donald ROSS

Longmeadow
Glens Falls
Biltmore forest

By Willie Park
Shuttle Meadow in  CT

RobertTrent Jones Sr
Crag Burn
Shady Oaks in Fort Worth

Orrin Smith  
Plandome
High Field in CT
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 05:42:38 PM by mark chalfant »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Confidential Guide
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2012, 06:42:32 PM »

By Dev  Emmet

Huntington
Glen Head
Schuyler Meadow
Rockville
Mechanicville

Keney Park  in CT

By ROSS

Longmeadow
Glens Falls

By Willie Park
Shuttle Meadow in  CT


+1 on Keney Park. A recent tree clearing program has opened up the playing corridors and brought the holes back to life. Emmet was blessed with a site filled with some wonderful natural land forms and a decent amount of elevation change. A proper restoration would really make Keney shine as all those first timers come away plenty impressed with what is already there. If the City of Hartford could find an interested benefactor I think it would be a really worthy project. That said there is a local cult following who realize how good it is.

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