[Andy Stamm]

I agree that PN needles has a bigger more broad shouldered feel, but I definitely think MP is harder  from the same distance. From about 6500 yards MP is rated harder and the slopes are the same. But you can take PN back to 7000 but can't at MP.

[John Kavanaugh]

I agree that PN needles has a bigger more broad shouldered feel, but I definitely think MP is harder  from the same distance. From about 6500 yards MP is rated harder and the slopes are the same. But you can take PN back to 7000 but can't at MP.

If you want long go play the RTJ Trail.

[Sean_A]

For me, Mid Pines in a landslide.  Pine Needles is one of the least impressive Ross courses I have played.  It doesn't stand out as pure parkland or as a Sand Hills course. That said, if there has been a lot of rain a week or so before your game, Pine Needles may be a better bet just because of drainage.

Ciao

[BCowan]

I agree with Sean.  MP in a landslide for it doesn't have any weak holes imo.  Pine Needles has some very impressive holes, but it also has many dull holes.  I think MP was better prior to renovation, now I think it is elevated to top tier in Ross courses imho.  The course offers much more strategy and shaping of the golf ball.  The improvements to #6 green look fantastic.   Ironic I scored 10 shots higher at Mid Pines.  I hope they continue to cut trees down and alleviate the drainage issues.  Look forward to playing in the pinehurst area every thanksgiving.  

[Jason Thurman]

Pine Needles is one of the least impressive Ross courses I have played.  It doesn't stand out as pure parkland or as a Sand Hills course.

Isn't that the whole argument against it though? That it just isn't as stylistically polished as Mid Pines?

Mid Pines is a 5 with a great hairstyle and a nice dress. Pine Needles is a 7 wearing sweatpants who just got back from the gym.

I also don't know how 9 at Mid Pines isn't a weak hole. 3 is a swamp, and 5 and 7 aren't all that great either in my book. The back 9 at Mid Pines is pretty special to be fair, but I just think there's a far greater variety of shots required at Pine Needles and I generally find golf on a larger scale to be more satisfying when hitting the ball well. If you have any kind of score or match going at all, that closing stretch at Pine Needles from 14 on gives you a hell of an exciting stage to hold things together down the stretch. I also don't think Mid Pines has a hole that even belongs in the same sentence as 2, 10, or 18 at Pine Needles, but that's just my take after a couple rounds at each.

Honestly Zack, I think it's probably 50/50 which one you prefer. There are lots of reasons to love both, but I am interested to hear more about the reasons that guys are picking Mid Pines.

[BCowan]

''Isn't that the whole argument against it though? That it just isn't as stylistically polished as Mid Pines?

Mid Pines is a 5 with a great hairstyle and a nice dress. Pine Needles is a 7 wearing sweatpants who just got back from the gym.

I also don't know how 9 at Mid Pines isn't a weak hole. 3 is a swamp, and 5 and 7 aren't all that great either in my book. The back 9 at Mid Pines is pretty special to be fair, but I just think there's a far greater variety of shots required at Pine Needles and I generally find golf on a larger scale to be more satisfying when hitting the ball well. If you have any kind of score or match going at all, that closing stretch at Pine Needles from 14 on gives you a hell of an exciting stage to hold things together down the stretch. I also don't think Mid Pines has a hole that even belongs in the same sentence as 2, 10, or 18 at Pine Needles, but that's just my take after a couple rounds at each.

Honestly Zack, I think it's probably 50/50 which one you prefer. There are lots of reasons to love both, but I am interested to hear more about the reasons that guys are picking Mid Pines.''

   Mid Pines is an 8.5 all day! How is #9 a weak hole, it demands you to think whether or not to bust driver out or hit a stinger iron or 3 wood?  The green is great, no sleeping allowed.  Pine Needles requires much less shot making skills imo.  I think 1 is all that great.   Don't require any thought and lack any character.  2 and 10 at Pine Needles aren't that special, the green isn't original at #10 and I think it is a weak short part 5.  The tee shot is great, then it's boring after that.  Mid Pines #5 is a great short par 5, which could be converted into long par 4 if they wanted to.  What is wrong with #7 at MP?  Front 9 at MP is great.  #3 at MP is the fault of the super for not having that problem fixed in this day in age!  MP #3 is probably the weakest on the front, due to the tee shot.  But if you like quirk it has it imo.  MP has just run into technology which has rendered it less impressive to some.  PN #3 and #5 are the best holes on the course imo.  There are some other great par 4's on there too.  MP is 8.5 and PN is 7.5 imo. 

[Tom Fagerli]

Now I admit I can't play a lick and the weather was vastly different but on consecutive days I had 86 at MP and 73 at PN. I love them both but MP is much harder.

[Matthew Sander]

Zack,

Of course the correct answer is to find the time to play both . I'm in the Mid Pines camp, but I have very few criticisms of Pine Needles. I would need to take a little more time to compare, but I recall a similar number of so-so holes on each course. I think Jason mentioned #s 3,5,7, and 9 as forgettable at MP, and I would agree with all but 7 which I found to be one of the better par 4s. 18 is a nice finisher at PN, but the holes immediately preceding it didn't make much of an impression. However, the middle stretch on the back is fantastic. I think 12 and 13 were my favorite par 4 and 3 at PN.

[Sean_A]

Yes, 3 is not good because of the drainage and visuals off the tee.  Nothing wrong with 5 though, just call it a par 4.  A long, tough 4 is the one element MP lacks.  7 is okay, but I wasn't thrilled with it.  9 though is very good.  I would take MPs 18th over PNs any day - I don't like the visuals.  In fact, PN has a very blah look about the entire course - very disappointing since it was renovated not very long ago.  Then of course, there is the matter of $50 higher green fees.  IMO it isn't justified or good value.  To be charging £120 for PN is taking the mickey.   

Ciao

[BCowan]

Matt

    I agree with you about #12 and #13 are great holes at PN.  #7 at MP has a great green.  #1 at MP is one of the best opening holes I have ever played!

[Matt MacIver]

I thnk these two courses are good examples of GCA.com vs the rest of the world - I love MP while all my friends would rather play PN.

[Kevin Lynch]

I thnk these two courses are good examples of GCA.com vs the rest of the world - I love MP while all my friends would rather play PN.

Well, to the general public, one held a US Open, so it must be better. 

I definitely enjoyed the feel of MidPines more than Needles, and the PN finishing stretch felt surprisingly bland (perhaps I was influenced by cracking the shaft on my Deep Faced Mashie).  I only played MP last February in the middle of the renovation, so I'm excited to get back there next weekend.

[Carl Rogers]

I was fortunate to play MP twice, once before and once after the renovation.  Having not traveled much for golf in my life, it takes me a while to come to my own assessment of the qualities of a course.  I though that the #12 at MP was the star of the show. Prior to the renovation, I thought MP was over treed.  After the renovation I still think some more trees need to come down.

I am trying to figure out when I can tee it up at PN (only live 4.5 hours away) and compare.

I do wonder if there is too much of a typecast "look" to MP, Dormie and Tobacco Road.

If these courses were in another neighborhood, could they command the price?

[BCowan]

Carl

    Mid Pines used to be resort only without members 5+ years ago and I think the same for Pine Needles.  The green fees used to be around $70 in the 90's!  Now that they have members the green fees have tripled for public play.  If you play with a member they are almost half public fee.  Yes, their location makes a huge difference.  In fact their membership dues are one of the best deals in the country!  Both courses deserve great praise and are top notch imo. Tobacco Road is prob 20-30 mins outside of Pinehurst.

[Jason Topp]

Someone has commented a few times that Mid-Pines has drainage issues.  I find the comment surprising because it seemed to me to drain extremely well. Did that person catch the course on a bad day or there an issue?

[BCowan]

Jason

    I would say just #3 in the fairway.  Also #14 was wet in front of the green.  Other than that i think it drains fine.  Pine Needles drains extremely well.  Duke U's course drains very poorly

[RJ_Daley]

Mid Pines is a 5 with a great hairstyle and a nice dress. Pine Needles is a 7 wearing sweatpants who just got back from the gym.

That one is worth another re-post.   

[Chris Buie]

You might enjoy having a look at this:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/2/9/must-see-mid-pines-restoration.html

[Brent Hutto]

OK, I"ll try again and hope this post gets through (although I can't for the life of me remember exactly what I tried to post last time).

I have a slight preference for Pine Needles over Mid-Pines based on my two visits there. I'd choose maybe 6 PN vs. 4 MP or similar. But that has the caveat that I have not seen Mid-Pines since the renovation.

I'd presume the redo improved the drainage considerably at Mid-Pines. The two times I've been there (10 years ago then a couple years later) it was wet all over one time and wet in places other times. And the greens were typically over-soft, over-watered North Carolina bent grass. My split of 6 vs. 4 assumes those issues no longer serve to differentiate it from its big sister. If there are still wetness issues and soft greens it'd be 9 Pn vs. 1 MP.

As a short hitter of less than championship caliber I'd really expect to like Mid-Pine's compact routing and slightly more twisty-turny selection of shots to be more fun than Pine Needles. But over recent years I've become more and more fond of seeing a bigger scale to contours, preferring larger greens to smaller (perish the thought!) and a little more open feeling that encourages a sense of playing outdoors over a narrower focus on very specific playing corridors.

Is it possible my recollection of the two courses is flawed? Because when someone says "Pine Needles" my mental image is open and rolling. The words "Mid-Pines" brings to mind more fitting of shots to the shape of a less open corridor. But as I say it has been a few years since I've seen either course, alas.

[Richard Hetzel]

I tend to side with Brent. I played both prior to renovation a few years back. I would probably play Pineneedles 6 times verses 4 for Mid Pines. After I exhaust all the other course near Southern Pines, I will give MP another go and see how it is.

[Matthew Sander]

Is it possible my recollection of the two courses is flawed? Because when someone says "Pine Needles" my mental image is open and rolling. The words "Mid-Pines" brings to mind more fitting of shots to the shape of a less open corridor. But as I say it has been a few years since I've seen either course, alas.

Brent,

I would say that is a fair statement, although I would not in any way suggest MidPines has a lack of width in its corridors. The setting at Pine Needles overall is certainly more open, especially the middle stretch on the back nine. However, I recall that the narrowest holes at PN feel every bit as narrow as the narrowest at MP, and remember that I'm using narrow in relative terms.

Please know that I didn't play MP pre-reno. I believe that significant tree removal was a part of the renovation.

[Tom Fagerli]

OK, I"ll try again and hope this post gets through (although I can't for the life of me remember exactly what I tried to post last time).

I have a slight preference for Pine Needles over Mid-Pines based on my two visits there. I'd choose maybe 6 PN vs. 4 MP or similar. But that has the caveat that I have not seen Mid-Pines since the renovation.

I'd presume the redo improved the drainage considerably at Mid-Pines. The two times I've been there (10 years ago then a couple years later) it was wet all over one time and wet in places other times. And the greens were typically over-soft, over-watered North Carolina bent grass. My split of 6 vs. 4 assumes those issues no longer serve to differentiate it from its big sister. If there are still wetness issues and soft greens it'd be 9 Pn vs. 1 MP.

As a short hitter of less than championship caliber I'd really expect to like Mid-Pine's compact routing and slightly more twisty-turny selection of shots to be more fun than Pine Needles. But over recent years I've become more and more fond of seeing a bigger scale to contours, preferring larger greens to smaller (perish the thought!) and a little more open feeling that encourages a sense of playing outdoors over a narrower focus on very specific playing corridors.

Is it possible my recollection of the two courses is flawed? Because when someone says "Pine Needles" my mental image is open and rolling. The words "Mid-Pines" brings to mind more fitting of shots to the shape of a less open corridor. But as I say it has been a few years since I've seen either course, alas.

Brent- the drainage issue is on number 3 and has yet to be addressed. Sadly this wet spot sort of runs down 1 thru 5 into 3. However I can assure you the soft bent grass greens you remember are just that- memories. Give MP another try. I think you will love it.

[Brent Hutto]

And just to be clear I really, really like Mid-Pines on my two previous visits. I just thought Pine Needles was a notch above Mid-Pines (and most other courses, too).

Back before I got into this forum and what have you, that visit to PN/MP was my first time playing any course more thoughtfully designed and carefully set up than a decent muni or public track. Pine Needles in particular was the course that ignited my desire (so to speak) to go find more courses that were of its caliber.

So even the odd damp fairway aside the new Mid-Pines with firm and true greens would be a treat I'm sure!

[Zack Molnar]

Im going down to pinehurst in two weeks and am trying to decide between mid-pines and pine needles as a morning round before heading to dormie in the afternoon. For those who have played mid-pines post-renovation, would you choose that over pine needles?

What day are you playing b/c I have a tee time for both courses on the 20th.

Rees,

This would be a tee-time on Saturday afternoon, which I believe is the 22nd.

[Jason Thurman]

Is it possible my recollection of the two courses is flawed? Because when someone says "Pine Needles" my mental image is open and rolling. The words "Mid-Pines" brings to mind more fitting of shots to the shape of a less open corridor. But as I say it has been a few years since I've seen either course, alas.

Brent,

I would say that is a fair statement, although I would not in any way suggest MidPines has a lack of width in its corridors. The setting at Pine Needles overall is certainly more open, especially the middle stretch on the back nine. However, I recall that the narrowest holes at PN feel every bit as narrow as the narrowest at MP, and remember that I'm using narrow in relative terms.

Please know that I didn't play MP pre-reno. I believe that significant tree removal was a part of the renovation.

I agree. Both courses have plenty of width. But Pine Needles has corridors that feel bigger and slopes that are broader. It's a more expansive feeling course. Mid Pines feels a bit more intimate.

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