The Wonderful 5th at Chambers Bay - TWANKED!

[Richard Choi]

What the heck are you talking about???

The right side of the fairway extended straight up on the right side until about 150 yards out from the green. The left side was wide open with about 20 yard opening in the front of the left green that is now all sand. This fairways is DRAMATICALLY narrower than it used to be and it completely changes the nature of the hole.

[Jeb Bearer]

Yeah the bunker took the place of a grass depression, not deep grass.

[Andy Troeger]

What the heck are you talking about???

The right side of the fairway extended straight up on the right side until about 150 yards out from the green. The left side was wide open with about 20 yard opening in the front of the left green that is now all sand. This fairways is DRAMATICALLY narrower than it used to be and it completely changes the nature of the hole.

I agree. The right side has been brought in far closer to the tee, although at its narrowest point before its about the same. The left side is totally different than when it was fairway and the extra green. In the photo I have (which I can email to someone for posting), there's a huge expanse of fairway left of that tree in the distance. In the new fairway at its narrowest point its on line with the tree. Its a dramatic change, and doesn't look like a good one to me.

[Mike Benham]

Great  call on the field of vision and zoomed in effect, JK.

[Matthew Essig]

Great  call on the field of vision and zoomed in effect, JK.

I guess it is up to opinion... A loss of 15-20 yards from a fairway that big is not a change to me.... The only real change to me is grass to sand.

[Jeb Bearer]

I guess it is up to opinion... A loss of 15-20 yards from a fairway that big is not a change to me.... The only real change to me is grass to sand.

Isn't grass to sand a big deal? And the fairway looks almost cut in half in the second picture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

When I played CB, the middle of the fairway seemed that it would rarely if ever be the ideal spot from which to approach this green. As a matter of fact, the further right or left you went (depending on pin position), the better off you were.

Mathew,

Off the top of my head I can't think of any hole where you're better off on the extreme left or right of a fairway rather than in the center of the fairway.

I've never played the hole, but what about the hole/features creates that anomaly ?

[Mark Saltzman]

When I played CB, the middle of the fairway seemed that it would rarely if ever be the ideal spot from which to approach this green. As a matter of fact, the further right or left you went (depending on pin position), the better off you were.

Mathew,

Off the top of my head I can't think of any hole where you're better off on the extreme left or right of a fairway rather than in the center of the fairway.

Patrick, that can't be true.

I've never played the hole, but what about the hole/features creates that anomaly ?

A bunker guarding the centre of the green.  I approached a right pin from the left-centre of the fairway and it was very difficult.  From the extreme right of the fairway it would have been much more straightforward and from that angle there would have been more room for error.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

What's the yardage of the hole and what club do you usually approach the green with ?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

What's the yardage of the hole and what club do you usually approach the green with ?

440 yards from the middle tees, 490 yards from the championship tees.  I've only played the hole twice but I think I approached with a hybrid once and a 5i once.

[Garland Bayley]

When I played CB, the middle of the fairway seemed that it would rarely if ever be the ideal spot from which to approach this green. As a matter of fact, the further right or left you went (depending on pin position), the better off you were.

Mathew,

Off the top of my head I can't think of any hole where you're better off on the extreme left or right of a fairway rather than in the center of the fairway.

I've never played the hole, but what about the hole/features creates that anomaly ?

OMG! Patrick's gone senile on us!

[Garland Bayley]

Matthew,

I have to wonder if you never got to play the hole before it's first narrowing a good deal of time before the US Am.

[jeffwarne]

When I played CB, the middle of the fairway seemed that it would rarely if ever be the ideal spot from which to approach this green. As a matter of fact, the further right or left you went (depending on pin position), the better off you were.

Mathew,

Off the top of my head I can't think of any hole where you're better off on the extreme left or right of a fairway rather than in the center of the fairway.

I've never played the hole, but what about the hole/features creates that anomaly ?

Thus with one stroke of green ink,the concept of preferred angles is rendered irrelevant.
Can learn so much on GCA!

[Matthew Sander]

GJ,

I played CB in June of '08, very shortly after its opening. So all of the course's alterations have occured since I played. There have been periodic reports on GCA of the gradual narrowing of hole 5 and I usually chimed in that I thought it was unfortunate. The most recent picture seems to be a far cry from the hole's first iteration.

Patrick,

Really it is quite simple - the hole is a par 4 that plays as long as 490. The green is shallow and boomerangs around a lone bunker punched into the front middle. For hole locations on the right, your approach is improved from the extreme right hand side, ditto for the left hand locations. If you are coming in from the other side of the fairway, you have the visual intimidation of the fronting bunker which requires you to be more precise. Also, keep in mind that CB features very firm/tight turf on the fairways and firm greens, so simply lofting a high shot that flies the bunker and sticks where it lands is a difficult and unlikely propostion.

Here is the photo I have from June of '08, the size of the players in the photo gives you a sense of the fairway's massive width...

[Scott Weersing]

I like the old hole with no bunkers left or right. I am not sure why they added the bunkers. The pros would rather play from a bunker than from the rough. It seems that there is not much of a penalty for missing the fairway.

And now, you have to maintain and rake the bunkers for the public play. It seems that this hole has gone in reverse. Instead of grassing over bunkers to reduce maintenance, they added lots of bunkers.

Oh well, this is still just a connecting hole to get you to no. 6 and no. 7. I am not a big fan of elevated tees on a links course. This is probably the weakest hole on the course with an elevated tee. No. 14 is the best. No. 9 is ok, and that leaves no. 5 as the elevated tee hole to receive the lowest rating and voted off the show.

[Will Lozier]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any hole where you're better off on the extreme left or right of a fairway rather than in the center of the fairway.

I've never played the hole, but what about the hole/features creates that anomaly ?[/b][/size][/color]

Shocking...

[John Kirk]

Seems to me this is an easy call.

Before, the 5th hole at Chambers Bay was a very simple, elegant design, a long, wide par 4 with a Lion's Mouth bunker, and a clever green design to augment the bunker.  On this hole, right hand pin positions are best attacked from the right side, and vice versa.  Since the hole is long, distance off the tee is also rewarded.  For me, the hole was plenty difficult as was.

By placing bunkers in the landing zone, the hole becomes more difficult, more expensive to maintain and less strategically interesting.

Patrick, since nobody mentioned an example of a hole where the center of the fairway is not ideal, #10 at Riviera is a good example.

[Greg Gilson]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any hole where you're better off on the extreme left or right of a fairway rather than in the center of the fairway.

Sorry Mr Mucci but , if this is true, I need to forget about everything i ever thought was interesting about great GCA. Maybe i'm mis-reading this comment. However, if this is true , then everything from TOC (especially!) through the good Doctor's gems to modern classics like Pacific Dunes, is off base. Having generous fairways where you had to challenge one extremity or the other to have an optimal approach is what makes them playable for ordinary folk, challenging for talented players and interesting for all....or so i thought.

What's happened at CB is just an ugly example of what happens when you mess with that principle.

[Jeb Bearer]

One of the big complaints about the Old Course recently has been definition: one of the things that makes the course special is that it lacks definition; it can be played any number of ways, and none is clearly better than the other. Each golfer must decide for himself based on his game and the current conditions. Likewise, the addition of bunkers here and narrowing of the landing area places the preferred shot in greater definition, whereas before the wide fairway and lack of man-made hazards made the hole more nebulous.

In other words, the before hole may have actually been tougher for the good player, because it forces him to confidently make a decision and commit to it. The only player that the changes are actually harder for is the high-handicapper who struggles to hit straight shots.

[David_Elvins]

3 Days of posting and no one has decided to do any measurements?  

The fairway has been reduced in width by 55 Yards at a distance of 320 yards from the championship tee (265 yards from the middle tee).

[Matthew Sander]

Thank you David. That should settle the debate as to whether or not the hole has been narrowed.

Now, some may say that the fairway is still pretty wide at approx. 39 yards. Of course they're right, but the character and strategy of the hole has been diluted. Before, the golfer had to convince him/herself that the play was to the extreme edges of the fairway as opposed to the middle. For many golfers, that is a counter intuitive thought and I would gather that many still played for the middle of the ultra wide fairway. Sure, you could make a par from there and possibly the occasional birdie, but playing to the edges offered a much better chance and an unobstructed view/path to the hole location.

Now, it seems more of a typical play to the middle, or to favor one side, but not in the extreme as it was before. John Kirk nailed it when he described the hole as simple and elegant. There were no visual tricks or heroic requirements for the tee shot. You only had to fight the temptation to take the line of instinct. Now, the tee shot is so much more defined and less imaginative. Just my two cents...

[Mark Saltzman]

David, genius! But looking at the old aerials it seems that the fairway was only maintained that wide in 2007.  In all subsequent aerials the rough on the right looks like it was grown into the fairway, narrowing it by almost 40 yards.

[Sean Leary]

Thank you David. That should settle the debate as to whether or not the hole has been narrowed.

Now, some may say that the fairway is still pretty wide at approx. 39 yards. Of course they're right, but the character and strategy of the hole has been diluted. Before, the golfer had to convince him/herself that the play was to the extreme edges of the fairway as opposed to the middle. For many golfers, that is a counter intuitive thought and I would gather that many still played for the middle of the ultra wide fairway. Sure, you could make a par from there and possibly the occasional birdie, but playing to the edges offered a much better chance and an unobstructed view/path to the hole location.

Now, it seems more of a typical play to the middle, or to favor one side, but not in the extreme as it was before. John Kirk nailed it when he described the hole as simple and elegant. There were no visual tricks or heroic requirements for the tee shot. You only had to fight the temptation to take the line of instinct. Now, the tee shot is so much more defined and less imaginative. Just my two cents...

The only reason that anyone was on either edge of this fairway was a missed shot. NOBODY was aiming towards the edges. I am not saying that it didn't create a better angle. But there isn't a player in the world that aimed there.

[Mark Saltzman]

Sean, of course you're right, but extreme width does allow golfers to aim away from the centre o the fairway. Not saying the edge.

[Will Lozier]

The only reason that anyone was on either edge of this fairway was a missed shot. NOBODY was aiming towards the edges. I am not saying that it didn't create a better angle. But there isn't a player in the world that aimed there.

Sean, that is a big statement.  If you are saying that nobody is trying to hit it within a yard of the rough/sand, you might be right.  But, if you don't think better players try to hit halves of fairways or even thirds to gain an advantage, you are very wrong.

Cheers