If you're going to blame anyone,

[JESII]

Pat,

How do you think Bryan's red line is wrong? I agree that it's slightly off in relation to the yellow line but I think the yellow line should be at the next lobe to the left...maybe 15 feet further left.

Maybe you could tell us where you think Tiger is aimed in that picture???

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How do you think Bryan's red line is wrong? I agree that it's slightly off in relation to the yellow line but I think the yellow line should be at the next lobe to the left...maybe 15 feet further left.

Maybe you could tell us where you think Tiger is aimed in that picture???

Jim,  I think he's aimed at the left corner of the right hand bunker.

[JESII]

And tried to cut it over to the flag?

[Patrick_Mucci]

And tried to cut it over to the flag?

Well, he couldn't hit a draw or a straight ball to get there, so a cut would be the shot of choice.

He didn't walk into that bunker, at 213, with a 6-iron, just trying to get out to the fronting fairway.
And, no matter where the flag was cut, hitting that green was no easy task
Why not take it left of the flag with a cut ?
He's Tiger Woods and he's playing exceptionally well and the tournament is on the line.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

If my red line is off at all at his feet, it should be marginally further left.  There is no logical way to say his feet align with the left edge of the right bunker.

Nobody has said that he hit it through the trees.  It's clear that he hit it over the trees. Watch the video closely. You can see the ball flash upward on a line where I drew the red flag.  In other words it started at the flag and ended up at the flag - a straight shot.  His alignment was left of the flag by 45 to 50 feet.  Those two factors define a push.  He may well have been trying to hit a cut, but if he was, he didn't execute it.  Still turned out pretty good, although, as he says, he missed the green.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

That's your interpretation.

I'm content with my assessment of his alignment at the left corner of the right hand bunker

[JESII]

Pat,

In that video we do not see the right hand bunker (the one behind the flag) at all. The three bunkers we see are actually two. Bryan's red line is pointing to the middle lobe of the middle bunker. I don't think Bryan Red line matches the yellow line on his aerial. I think the yellow line is 20 or 25 feet right of the red line.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

I stand corrected.  If you extend the red line up, it intersects with the clubhouse roof which gives another point of reference.  The yellow line on the aerial should indeed be further left - a good 75 feet left of the pin.  The blue line to the pin indicates that the line goes over slightly to the right of the peak of the pine tree, so I moved that further right behind the trees in the Tiger pic.  The green line is the initial trajectory of the ball.

Patrick,

You'd be comfortably wrong about the alignment.

[JMEvensky]

Bryan,any chance of train tracks running along side Glen Abbey for Pat to peruse? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

In that video we do not see the right hand bunker (the one behind the flag) at all.

Yes you do, please look at the video in it's entirety, it's clear that all three bunkers are in view and that your's and Bryan's depiction of the flag is in error.

The three bunkers we see are actually two.

Please, look at the video in it's entirety, all three bunkers are CLEARLY visible.

Bryan's red line is pointing to the middle lobe of the middle bunker. I don't think Bryan Red line matches the yellow line on his aerial. I think the yellow line is 20 or 25 feet right of the red line.

Bryan's red line is clearly wrong because Bryan wants it to be further left.
At the very worst, Tiger's position has him between the two right bunkers.

[Pat Burke]

FWIW  as well as  IMHO   

Tiger's shoulder line looks right of his feet/knee line.
His path looks like it follows his shoulder line.
Having played there a hundred years ago, the ball was a little above his feet.
In fairway bunkers, for me at least, ball above feet in a bunker meant a shot that started a little right
of my target line when toe caught sand moving through.  Maybe because I'm so damn short?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I told Tiger that I'd give him some nice photos of he and his dad, taken in 1996, at my friend's house when we were having a Bar-B-Q, when he was playing in the Open at Shinnecock..

I'll ask him exactly where he was aiming and how he hit the shot and any other questions I can think of.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

Nah, the tracks are about a mile south.  Besides, you know the trains go too fast to see anything.   


Pat B,

Sure, I could see that.  Curious though because the shoulders closed relative to the knees and feet is usually a draw set-up isn't it?  I've played there too and yes it is tilted a bit so I could see him catching the toe a bit and yes that could cause the shot to start right.


Patrick,

Yes you do, please look at the video in it's entirety, it's clear that all three bunkers are in view and that your's and Bryan's depiction of the flag is in error.

Clearly you haven't been there.  I have.  In fact it's one of the courses I have exchange privileges at.  I have stood in and played from that bunker.  Since you haven't seen it or played it, here's another picture that shows you where the third bunker is.  The picture is taken from outside left of the bunker, so a bit left from where the video was taken. They pruned the lower branches of the tree that was blocking out the right part of the green, so now you can see the right hand bunker under the branches of the tree.  The second and third bunker you thought you saw are really the left and right lobes of the middle bunker.

Click on the picture and then zoom if you want to see it larger.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

If you look at the video and notice the location of the hole, it's further left than your depiction.

I'd like to see a picture taken from where Tiger was standing.
Even your picture, taken from behind and outside the bunker shows the right side bunker at the base of the trees.

The video of Tiger also appears to be taken from behind and a little in front of Tiger.

In addition, your blue line, from where you place Tiger to where the ball came to rest would have hit the trees on the right, close to the bunker, and we know that they didn't.  The ball flight is left of those trees, not over them

[Sven Nilsen]

The video of Tiger also appears to be taken from behind and a little in front of Tiger.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, how can a line of site be from both behind and in front of something?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The video of Tiger also appears to be taken from behind and a little in front of Tiger.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, how can a line of site be from both behind and in front of something?

Sven,

Think of 360 degrees with someone's alignment being along 180 degrees, if you were behind them, but could see a little of their stomach and chest you'd probably be at 165 degrees.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat, if that's what you meant to say, your words didn't convey the message you intended.  Please try harder to to describe your thoughts with a bit more clarity.  Its hard enough trying to decipher the multitudinous color codes without having to read your mind as well.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

If you look at the video and notice the location of the hole, it's further left than your depiction.

I'd like to see a picture taken from where Tiger was standing.
Even your picture, taken from behind and outside the bunker shows the right side bunker at the base of the trees.

The video of Tiger also appears to be taken from behind and a little in front of Tiger.

In addition, your blue line, from where you place Tiger to where the ball came to rest would have hit the trees on the right, close to the bunker, and we know that they didn't.  The ball flight is left of those trees, not over them

OK, the pin location might be marginally further toward the front of the green and maybe a hair left of the blue line.  And, so ........

If you find such a picture, send it to me and I'll post it.

Not sure what you mean by "even" in your third line.  In the last still picture the bunker is visible under the (now trimmed) tree.  In the video image it's not visible.  In the still picture, by your method of counting there are 4 bunkers, although we know in reality that there are only three, the middle one being quite wide and being composed of two lobes.

Possibly, although I'm with Sven re what the heck did you mean.  Or, possibly Tiger had his shoulders closed, although his whole setup looks very square to me.  Regardless his alignment appears to me to be along the red line, give or take a bit either way.  There's no way he's aligned along the green line.

The initial ball flight was along the green line, as I previously said.  You have to look at the video very closely.  The blue line is a straight line to the flag and indicates that the flag is behind the tree.