What are the special architectural qualities of The Old Course?

[Niall C]

John

Thats an interesting point and good argument for doing nothing but it does comes back to whether you view the Old Course as a historical artefact to be left untouched or whether you believe the course should be allowed to evolve the way it has over the centuries. As someone who cherishes the old grass bunkers on the Old Course at Moray for instance, many if which have little relevance for todays play, your argument to keep whats there has some appeal however I have to say preserving bunkers in some shape or form is surely of more benefit to future generations than say preserving a flat area. Just my opinion.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Good point Niall

I hope that they keep all the irrelevant right-hand side of 2-6 (~1905) Low bunkers as grass bunkers rather than JCB them into flatitude.  Their shape and position should remain as lasting evidence of amateurish architectural folly for future hysterical historians to contemplate.....

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hi Niall

Hope you are well. I contest the notion of 'evolution' being equated to what Dawson is doing. In fact, I think there's an example in Dawson's program of architectural change that stops 'evolution' (as I think we are using the term here) dead in its tracks: filling in the hollow on 7.

Wouldn't 'evolution' mean leaving that landform alone and allowing the divots to 'evolve' that hollow into a bunker?

Dawson's filling in of the hollow appears to me the exact opposite of letting the course evolve. It appears to me another example of the philosophy behind Dawson's changes:

"By continuing with the proposed changes, Messrs. Dawson and Hawtree are forcing their own limited views of design onto a course that previously offered infinite possibilities.  They are giving the course definition, the lack of which was the one thing that set The Old Course apart from everything else."

Mark

[Niall C]

Very well indeed thank you Mark, trust you are too. Now that I've had my porridge and ready to start work towards earning my R&A membership let me say that I really do wish you'd stop referring to the work as being Mr Dawsons. The blessed Peter has minnions to make these kind of decisions for him and in no way can he be held responsible.

Having said that, I do like your notion (or indeed Tommy's notion) that the hollow be left to evolve into a bunker however given that TOC is effectively now an American course thats 99% populated by Americans and with apparently Americans the only people who care about it and also given there abhorrence of poor lies, do you really think that would be alowed to happen ?

Niall

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Very well indeed thank you Mark, trust you are too. Now that I've had my porridge and ready to start work towards earning my R&A membership let me say that I really do wish you'd stop referring to the work as being Mr Dawsons. The blessed Peter has minnions to make these kind of decisions for him and in no way can he be held responsible.

Having said that, I do like your notion (or indeed Tommy's notion) that the hollow be left to evolve into a bunker however given that TOC is effectively now an American course thats 99% populated by Americans and with apparently Americans the only people who care about it and also given there abhorrence of poor lies, do you really think that would be alowed to happen ?

Niall

Niall,

where do you get your quoted statistic that the Old Course is  99%  populated by Americans?

[Bradley Anderson]

For most golf courses nature merely provides the canvas and man provides the brush-work. But as a work of art The Old Course is unique in that nature provided most of the brush strokes, arguably more so than any other course of merit in the world.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Very well indeed thank you Mark, trust you are too. Now that I've had my porridge and ready to start work towards earning my R&A membership let me say that I really do wish you'd stop referring to the work as being Mr Dawsons. The blessed Peter has minnions to make these kind of decisions for him and in no way can he be held responsible.

Having said that, I do like your notion (or indeed Tommy's notion) that the hollow be left to evolve into a bunker however given that TOC is effectively now an American course thats 99% populated by Americans and with apparently Americans the only people who care about it and also given there abhorrence of poor lies, do you really think that would be alowed to happen ?

Niall

Niall,

where do you get your quoted statistic that the Old Course is  99%  populated by Americans?

If only Niall had read past page 27 of this report, he'd learn that on page 32 more than 50% of play at St Andrews is by local golfers. 

http://standrews.org.uk/getmedia/d9b25d62-e44d-4b01-9c58-df4c1113ea99/Annual-Report-2010-V9.aspx

Now this doesn’t tell us what the percentage on TOC is but I just wanted to tackle this before Kavanagh starts quoting him as a local expert. My guess is that the ratio on TOC is similar to those quoted for The Castle.  i.e. two visitors for every local and of the visitors the Americans are outnumbered 2:1 by all other nations (which of course includes those of us from the rest of GB&I).  Hence Americans 20-25% max.

[Mark Pearce]

If anything, Tony, I suspect the number of locals on the Castle is lower than TOC, so there will be fewer Americans playing TOC.  My guess is that <20% of rounds played on TOC are by Americans.  Even allowing for the obvious hyperbole Niall's point was simply wrong.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Getting back to the topic -- Niall, funny to reflect upon Americans dominating tee times: these changes are 'Americanising' the course -- what holes are of unique and special merit?

What six holes did Mackenzie copy at ANGC?

What features or bunkers are unique and special? Can a bunker or feature even qualify or is it all down to its utility (location and use)?

[Niall C]

eh chaps........I was having a laugh  Clearly I need to work on my humour, as Frank Carson would have said, its the way I tell them.

Mark

All the holes at TOC are unique and have some merit, including the 9th, if only because it makes the rest look better in comparison. Likewise bunkers are unique also in the context of the hole. But you could say that about most courses if you want to analyse them to the minute detail.

ANGC and TOC ? no idea, I could guess at a few that had elements of TOC holes but not any that were copies to a large the extent of being template holes. Please enlighten me.

Niall

[Don_Mahaffey]

St Andrews Old represents a very important period in golf. While the argument marches on about what is natural or what is constructed,  more important to me is the fact the course has been relatively free of change since the dawn of the professional architect. TOC was the best pre-golden age example of a course used for every day play that could also test the best golfers in the world. And it is no small fact that she inspired almost every architect of note during the formative period when golf architecture became a profession.  I equate the changes at TOC to electronically changing Robert Johnson's music to better represent our modern tastes. I guess someone could say it would be an improvement, but we already have Eric Clapton and so many others we can listen to from subsequent eras.

[Jeb Bearer]

Niall:

From what I understand, several of the holes at ANGC were originally intended to be template holes, and the resemblance has been toned down with the many subsequent "updates". I'm not sure of too many offhand, but I know the fifth was intended to be a Road hole and the sixth a modified Redan (not TOC, I know, but it shows the intent)