[Jim Colton]

For those who have visited Trump's new course, how would you rank/compare it with other modern courses in Scotland? I'm thinking particularly of Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns and Renaissance Club.

More broadly, how would it stack up against others in Golfweek's Top 10 GB&I modern? Any guess on where it might debut?

GB&I Modern Courses: 1960 and later

1. Kingsbarns
St. Andrews, Scotland
1999 - Kyle Phillips
7.92

2. Castle Stuart
Inverness, Scotland
2009 - Gil Hanse, Mark Parsinen
7.82

3. Loch Lomond
Dunbartonshire, Scotland
1994 - Jay Morrish, Tom Weiskopf
7.68

4. Waterville
Waterville, Ireland
1973 - Eddie Hackett
7.54

5. Renaissance Club at Archerfield
Dirleton, Scotland
2008 - Tom Doak
7.41

6. The European Club
Brittas Bay, Ireland
1992 - Pat Ruddy
7.38

7. Old Head of Kinsale
Kinsale, Ireland
1997 - Eddie Hackett, Joe Carr, Ron Kirby, Paddy Merrigan, Liam Higgins
6.97

8. Carne
Belmullet, Ireland
1995 - Eddie Hackett
6.89

9. Enniscrone
Enniscrone, Ireland
1973 - Eddie Hackett
6.78

10. Lough Erne
Enniskillen, Northern Ireland
2009 - Nick Faldo
6.74

[Adam Lawrence]

For me, clearly better than 6-10; the others more arguable

[jeffwarne]

For me, clearly better than 6-10; the others more arguable

Adam,
Which course would you rather play/
Trump or Carne
Not which do you think is better, but which would you prefer to play?

[Sean_A]

I don't play many moderns mainly because they tend to be very expensive.  That said, I would place Enniscrone well above European Club.  I would also place the Castle Course comfortably above European Club.  Additionally, Carne & Saunton West (always the very good course overlooked in these discussions) for me pip out European Club.  Is there a message there?

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

I got the same message.    Have you played Waterville or Old Head?  and if so what were your thoughts?

[Niall C]

Jim

I can only really comment on the Scottish ones but I would order them as follows;

1 = Renaissance/Loch Lomond*

2 - Trump

3 - Kingsbarns

4 = Castle Stuart/Dundonald

6 - Craigielaw

I've asterisked by Renaissance and Loch Lomond as the latter has been largely rebuilt with new greens and sand capped fairways since I played it but its still the same layout which uses well a not unattractive landscape but certainly not an easy one to build on either. Renaissance is also going through a well documented transition, and having been fortunate to see the changes yesterday with Simon Holt, the course will certainly not be weaker but will have added WOW with the backdrop to the new holes. Of course being Scottish I'm immune to scenery and would be just as happy with a right good caravan park in the background however whatever your own thoughts on that, the quality of the new holes are impressive.

Trump - A very good solid course that will improve with tweaking, conditioning and a good few bunkers being filled in, particularly on the 18th. Unlike Renaissance/Loch Lomond where I can't really recall any poor holes, Trump does suffer IMO with the 10th and 18, neither of which is a good hole.

Kingsbarns to my mind is still the benchmark for creating a rugged "natural" landscape from which to fashion a golf course. It' some surprise therefore that the same developer (Mark Parsinen) produced a stadium course for his next course (Castle Stuart). You might be aware I have certain issues with Castle Stuart but don't think I don't like it, I do. Its just not as interesting but at least has better turf than Kingsbarns which is a bit grainy in comparison.

Dundonald is a modern links fashioned on pure sand by Kyle Phillips. Has some good golf but IMO could be better. The fact that its not better is probably down to the brief and interference from the client, as well as half arsed finishing in some of the landscaping. Perhaps my biggest problem however is that in some ways Phillips created a bit of a parkland course in the sand, with impossible approaches unless standing in the right place with the right club for the shot assuming that the weather conditions aren't against you. In other words there's no flexibility to allow for the fact that one day the winds with you and the next against. From memory, trying to hit some of those greens with anything more than a short iron would call for Rory like control.

Craigielaw is a Tom MacKenzie design with probably by far the smallest budget of any of the courses listed. Not the best turf but still some very nice golf with quite undulating greens. I believe that MacKenzie feels he overdid them but they are easily the main feature of the course. I'd keep them, well worth a play with the first a great favourite of mine.

I've not included the Dukes (Thomson Perrit) since have only seen it rather than played it since it had its "Heathland" makeover. I rather liked it before and as the changes have got rid of some of the awkard routing it should still be worth a hit (at the right price !). Honourable mentions also for the St Andrews Bay courses which I've played a number of times and mostly really enjoy. Not listed here as they've done some quite extensive alterations since I played them but with a lot of the original holes in play should be worth a visit (again at the right price). Mch Dunes I haven't seen. The same with the new Gleneagles course. Finally I haven't ranked the Castle Course. While I've walked large sections of it I feel its the sort of course you need to play to properly gauge it. Hopefully a small lottery win in the near future will help me to do so.

Niall


 

[Mark Pearce]

Niall,

Have you played Craighead?  Miles better than Craigielaw.

[Mark Chaplin]

Niall - being a Scot I'm sure you noticed the account at some of the courses you have listed. Other than your No.1s where it's difficult to pick up the cheque does this affect your viewpoint?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I got the same message.    Have you played Waterville or Old Head?  and if so what were your thoughts?

Jud

No, I don't have much desire to play Waterville and while I have walked Old Head, I would be hard pressed to pay the green fee.  The course looks good without being anything close to matching how special the land is.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Niall,

Have you played Craighead?  Miles better than Craigielaw.

Mark

I've played Craighead a number of times over the years and I know you are a big fan of it. At one point I preferred it to Balcomie although I'm not sure thats the case now. It doesn't have any golf holes that are absolute clunkers and does have some really nice golf as in the drivable par 4 down into the corner but the dog-leg holes up top are fairly repetitive and uninspired from what I remember. You've made the point before about it being built on a modest budget but do you think they spent any less here than on most new courses in the UK and is this miles better than all of those courses ?

If you are looking at courses with modest budgets that have some great design then come and have a look at my "new best friend" of a golf course at Duff House Royal. Remarkable what MacKenzie achieved on a limited budget with horse drawn scoops etc on a relatively flat site. Craighead aint in that class IMO.

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall, Loch Lomond was not sand capped when I played it this summer. Or maybe it had been but balls were still plugging? Curious to know why you rate it so highly? That isn't a loaded question, just interested to hear your views.

Brian

My one and only play of the course was when the original developer went bust and the bank took it over for a year or so before Lyle Anderson bought it. I recall playing it in an outing with about 12 or 13 fourballs playing with each fourball playing as a team. My fourball won and we lost 25 golf balls between us. Anywhere off the fairway was jungle. Despite that I loved the course the way the holes fitted into the land and the way the course ran through the landscape. There were no clunkers from what I recall.

I've not played the course since but have attended plenty of Scottish Opens there and it still looks in essence the course that I played. Two big problems with it though is the fact that its situated beside the biggest puddle in Scotland which tells you something about the weather there abouts. The second thing is the way the original contractor went about building the course such that they had to rebuild all the greens due to the rubbish material he was used to build them with. A few years later, I gather they raised the fairways to deal with drainage issues and while sand capping might be the wrong term they undoubtedly would have used a better draining material than the local soil. Did you find the going heavy when you played it ?

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall - being a Scot I'm sure you noticed the account at some of the courses you have listed. Other than your No.1s where it's difficult to pick up the cheque does this affect your viewpoint?

Sorry Mark, not quite certain what you are asking but if you're asking does the price come into it then it does in terms of whether I play a course but not how I rate it if you know what I mean. Of the ones I've listed I've not paid top dollar other than the relatively modest visitor fee at Craigielaw. Being situated in Scotland I take the opportunity to play courses inexpensively when the opportunity comes rather than paying whatever it takes.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Niall and Brian

When I was given a tour of the course in 2007 with the head Greenkeeper, they were in the process of dumping huge amounts of sand all over the course and he told me that this was a fairly regular occurrence, due to the inherent bogginess of the site.  I wrtoe then that it was "a work in progress."  Seems like nothing has changed.....

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Niall,

I'm comparing Craighead to Craigielaw.  Craighead isn't in the class of some of the new courses and I wouldn't argue it was in the same league as those at the top of your list.  But Craigielaw?  Beats it into a cocked hat.

I also strongly disagree with the suggestion that the dogleg holes are too similar.  Indeed I'm not really sure which holes you have in mind.  I'm sure there are better examples of work on a restricted budget but that doesn't mean Craighead isn't an example of a job well done.  FWIW I probably play the two Crail courses equally frequently of choice.

[Niall C]

Mark

We'll just need to disagree on the two Craigs. I've played both several times but not for a while so I reserve the right to change my mind in the future when I've played them again. With regards to the holes I refered to at Craighead, I can't recall the numbering but I recall dog-leg holes that were acutely dog-legged for no real reason other than to fit in with the routing, and they all (both ?) had bunkering on the inside leg of the dog-leg. I suspect in response you'll give me a detailed hole by hole description proving thats not the case but all I can say really is if you gave me the choice tomorrow I would play Craigielaw. Just my opinion.

Niall

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