[Sean Walsh]

Thanks, Chris.  If you want to add even more spice to your trip, stop in at the incredible 9-holer at Mulranney, an hour or two south of Carne.  It's Brora as it used to be 100+ years ago.....

That's big wraps and therefore Mulranney just got added to any future trip around Ireland. 

[Scott Warren]

Tommy:

Jud, I would gladly play 7 out of 10 times at TEC.  For me it has it all, save maybe long tradition.

A long tradition, fairways of a character that belong in those massive dunes, greens that don't fight the natural fall of the land, reasonable width and an economical approach to bunkering are the only things TEC is missing.

Perhaps the thing that doesn't seem right about 18 is that it's a near exact replica of 9 (save for the pond in front of the green)?

I'd go 8-2 in favour of Baltray, but of course I understand why others might vote equally the other way around.

[Sean_A]

How many would play 5 out of 10 rounds at the European club versus Baltray?  Of course it's right up Digest's alley....

Jud, I would gladly play 7 out of 10 times at TEC.  For me it has it all, save maybe long tradition.  It requires good tee shots, accurate irons, great imagination around the greens, and beauty.  The only hole that really doesn't do it for me is 18.  It just doesn't feel right and it has nothing to do with the water near the green.  

The list, however, is too long.  There really are not 100 courses in Ireland of note.  The bottom 50 could be in any order and no one would blink.  The cream is in the top thirty.  Beyond that the quality declines rapidly.  As I went though the list I have played 45 of them over the years.  There are only a few that I have not played that I would like to: Doonbeg, Carne, and Carton House, Montgomery.

The course I think is the most overrated is Waterville.  Just don't get why it is so loved.

Tommy is right.  When a list of courses contains many which don't merit special attention, it diminishes the value of many which do merit attention.  This list should be 50 max.  The panel can then have a wee list of gems and other oddities.  I would think the Irish would think outside the box - they certainly drink enough where they ought to.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

How many would play 5 out of 10 rounds at the European club versus Baltray?  Of course it's right up Digest's alley....

Jud, I would gladly play 7 out of 10 times at TEC.  For me it has it all, save maybe long tradition.  It requires good tee shots, accurate irons, great imagination around the greens, and beauty.  The only hole that really doesn't do it for me is 18.  It just doesn't feel right and it has nothing to do with the water near the green.  

The list, however, is too long.  There really are not 100 courses in Ireland of note.  The bottom 50 could be in any order and no one would blink.  The cream is in the top thirty.  Beyond that the quality declines rapidly.  As I went though the list I have played 45 of them over the years.  There are only a few that I have not played that I would like to: Doonbeg, Carne, and Carton House, Montgomery.

The course I think is the most overrated is Waterville.  Just don't get why it is so loved.

Tommy is right.  When a list of courses contains many which don't merit special attention, it diminishes the value of many which do merit attention.  This list should be 50 max.  The panel can then have a wee list of gems and other oddities.  I would think the Irish would think outside the box - they certainly drink enough where they ought to.

Ciao

Sean,

This "should only be 50" argument surfaces every year... The truth is that it means a lot to the clubs to be in the 100 so they want it more than anyone. However, I agree that rating 50 to 100 is a bit of a nightmare and getting the last 10 or 20 in (i.e. deciding who gets left out) really is hard... Personally I'd prefer to see it left at 100 but with only the first 50 given a numerical order and the 2nd 50 lumped in together.

[Ivan Morris]

I don't believe in ranking courses beyond say, a top 20. After that it all becomes a bit of a muddle. I’m spoiled. I live in a country with an ideal, temperate climate for playing golf all year. Small as Ireland is there are so many great golf courses that I tell visitors to concentrate on one geographical area at a time and make plans to come back again. While, I do not believe in ranking courses numerically it doesn't mean I do not have personal favourites. If pressed, I would say that Waterville, Portrush, The European, Portmarnock, Cork, Rosapenna Old, Lahinch, Ballybunion, Ballyliffin Old make up my top nine and, for now, it's as far as I am prepared to go. There are dozens of other courses that I would be happy to play any time but Brian Sheehy is 'almost' right when he says Irish golf is really all about links golf. Ireland's best inland courses lag far behind the Sunningdale's and Merion's. The best of them are Cork, Adare, Carlow, Fota, Malone and Killarney.   

[David Davis]

Ivan, fair enough but you'd leave out RCD would you? I'm guessing/hoping you simply forgot to put it in as number 1.

[Tim Rooney]

Ally,
Is the new Carne 9 finished?The few I witnessed would appear to elevate their rating?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,
Is the new Carne 9 finished?The few I witnessed would appear to elevate their rating?

Hi Tim - There will be a soft opening in July next year with the potential to mix the new holes with the existing back nine for 2014 or 2015.

[Jack_Marr]

I think Carne's new nine will move it right up the rankings.

[Padraig Dooley]

The list is pretty accurate, would definitely agree that 100 is too much, 50 is more than enough, have been looking at the mainstream media and social media to see what the reaction to it would be like. In the print media there's very little comment just reporting on the list, on social media there's the usual I can't understand why x, y or z isn't ranked or is ranked so highly. Enniscrone is the notable one that gets a little bashing on social media.


This comment was in one of the newspapers.

'Eyebrows will no doubt be raised at a fall of Killeen Course at Killarney from 27th to 33rd, just 16 months after hosting the Irish Open for the second year in a row.'

I find the comment interesting. Can't imagine a drop of 6 places in a ranking would have any effect on business. Does anybody think it would?

[Mark_F]

I think Sandy Hills was a little hard done by this year...

Have to disagree with you there, Ally. 

Sandy Hills could never be hard done by.  Before I played it, I kept hearing it received little traffic because of its difficulty.  I disagree.  It receives little traffic because it's dull, boring, mundane and almost a complete waste of three hours. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think Sandy Hills was a little hard done by this year...

Have to disagree with you there, Ally. 

Sandy Hills could never be hard done by.  Before I played it, I kept hearing it received little traffic because of its difficulty.  I disagree.  It receives little traffic because it's dull, boring, mundane and almost a complete waste of three hours. 

Mark, I see you're pulling your punches as always.... Looking forward to your posts on the other Irish courses you saw... and your Enniscrone debate with Sean...

How was the Scottish / English leg of your trip?

[Mark_F]

Mark: what's your phone number? 

Very funny, Brian.   

Mark, I see you're pulling your punches as always.... Looking forward to your posts on the other Irish courses you saw... and your Enniscrone debate with Sean...

How was the Scottish / English leg of your trip?

I know no other way Ally...

I liked Western Gailes a lot.  It wasn't in the best condition, but a stack of interesting holes to go along with the more standard type ones.  I was treated very nicely too.  I'm glad Brian Sheehy posted his tour earlier this year - I wouldn't have gone there without seeing that, and it was well worth it.

Prestwick - wasn't a big fan of.  You play the first three holes and think it's going to be sensational, but after that it peters out until the approach into 12. 13 and 15-17 are fantastic, but despite a couple of alarmingly sloped greens at 8 and 9, the rest of the course didn't do a whole lot for me.

North Berwick - A lot of fun.  It contains some odd holes, but the greens of course are terrific.  I liked a couple of the more unknown holes like 4, 7 and 10 more than the better known ones.

Notts - even though I played mostly temporaries, it was sensational.  Spacious, great use of land, and probably the most beautifully textured golf course I have ever seen. 

Huntercombe - devilish and clever are probably the best words to describe it.  A very laid back place.

Swinley Forest - the company was great, but the course is a shithole. 

As for Ireland:

Lahinch - a mixed bag.  Some of Hawtree's work is quite good, but greens like 6,11 and 16 in particular are way too awkward.  13 also seems to sit quite strangely, even though it's a really good hole. 4 on the other hand is about as good a 475 yard par five as you could play.

Carne - liked it a little less the 2nd time around, but still think it's fantastic.  The only hole I wasn't entirely sure of was the 18th.  Probably just 2 or 3 plain greens too many away from being sensational.

Enniscrone - not a big fan.  Has some good holes, but that is all they are.  A few bizarre moments like 1 and 12, a fairly dull section between 5-10 and the fact that three of the par fives are the same hole let it down.

Strandhill - sensational.  Could play it anytime. 

County Sligo - a course of bits and pieces.  Some nice drives, some nice second shots but perhaps only one hole - the 8th - combines both, and the greens, with the exception of 4 and 12 are boring.  The drive on 18 is impossible into a five club wind.

Narin and Portnoo - same as Strandhill.  Just a great place.

Rosapenna Sandy Hills - just not that interesting.  The flat fairways between the dunes/hummocks look awful.  I'm not all that sure it's that good a piece of land, but the good bits like 12 aren't used well at all. 

Portsalon - fantastic.  14 -16 especially are insanely good, and most of the stuff going out is really well done, even if a few of the fairways looked suspiciously to have seen the blades of a bulldozer.

Northwest GC - A simple place with super friendly staff and members.  Amazing that they could squeeze 18 holes into that piece of land.  A great set of par threes, and a large handful of really interesting holes.  It won't blow you away, but it's hard to stop thinking of just how well done it is. 

County Down - Had the course to myself on a beautiful Belfast morning, for which I paid the princely sum of $78 Australian dollars.   Probably the best conditioned course I have ever seen with greens that were almost Sandbelt quick.  The front nine in staggeringly good, the back nine less so.  Liked 16 strategically, but the bunkers are terrible.  It's strange that a club of this stature and means would leave them like that.

County Louth - some really good holes mixed with a few plain ones, but worth seeing just for 5 and 14, and that still leaves 3,4,6,12 and 15.  The first two have a cleverness to them the lesser holes on the back nine don't.

Portmarnock - A course you definitely need to see more than once.    I loved the mixture of greens, the changes of direction and the subtleties of the holes.

[jeffwarne]

Mark,
It appears our tastes are very similar.
Shame you didn't see Dunfanaghy.

I could certainly build a trip around Portsalon, Strandhill, and Narin and Portnoo

[Doug Siebert]

I had the same response as Jud.  How the heck does Waterville rate over either Lahinch or Ballybunion, let alone both of them?

I'll second those who say Connemara is underrated, though I haven't played Carne so I can't comment on the comparison.

[Ivan Morris]

Yes - I would leave RCD out of my top 10. I prefer Waterville and The European to either Lahinch or Ballybunion (too much familiarity, I guess?) There is no accounting for taste!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mark: what's your phone number? 

Very funny, Brian.   

Mark, I see you're pulling your punches as always.... Looking forward to your posts on the other Irish courses you saw... and your Enniscrone debate with Sean...

How was the Scottish / English leg of your trip?

I know no other way Ally...

I liked Western Gailes a lot.  It wasn't in the best condition, but a stack of interesting holes to go along with the more standard type ones.  I was treated very nicely too.  I'm glad Brian Sheehy posted his tour earlier this year - I wouldn't have gone there without seeing that, and it was well worth it.

Prestwick - wasn't a big fan of.  You play the first three holes and think it's going to be sensational, but after that it peters out until the approach into 12. 13 and 15-17 are fantastic, but despite a couple of alarmingly sloped greens at 8 and 9, the rest of the course didn't do a whole lot for me.

North Berwick - A lot of fun.  It contains some odd holes, but the greens of course are terrific.  I liked a couple of the more unknown holes like 4, 7 and 10 more than the better known ones.

Notts - even though I played mostly temporaries, it was sensational.  Spacious, great use of land, and probably the most beautifully textured golf course I have ever seen. 

Huntercombe - devilish and clever are probably the best words to describe it.  A very laid back place.

Swinley Forest - the company was great, but the course is a shithole. 

As for Ireland:

Lahinch - a mixed bag.  Some of Hawtree's work is quite good, but greens like 6,11 and 16 in particular are way too awkward.  13 also seems to sit quite strangely, even though it's a really good hole. 4 on the other hand is about as good a 475 yard par five as you could play.

Carne - liked it a little less the 2nd time around, but still think it's fantastic.  The only hole I wasn't entirely sure of was the 18th.  Probably just 2 or 3 plain greens too many away from being sensational.

Enniscrone - not a big fan.  Has some good holes, but that is all they are.  A few bizarre moments like 1 and 12, a fairly dull section between 5-10 and the fact that three of the par fives are the same hole let it down.

Strandhill - sensational.  Could play it anytime. 

County Sligo - a course of bits and pieces.  Some nice drives, some nice second shots but perhaps only one hole - the 8th - combines both, and the greens, with the exception of 4 and 12 are boring.  The drive on 18 is impossible into a five club wind.

Narin and Portnoo - same as Strandhill.  Just a great place.

Rosapenna Sandy Hills - just not that interesting.  The flat fairways between the dunes/hummocks look awful.  I'm not all that sure it's that good a piece of land, but the good bits like 12 aren't used well at all. 

Portsalon - fantastic.  14 -16 especially are insanely good, and most of the stuff going out is really well done, even if a few of the fairways looked suspiciously to have seen the blades of a bulldozer.

Northwest GC - A simple place with super friendly staff and members.  Amazing that they could squeeze 18 holes into that piece of land.  A great set of par threes, and a large handful of really interesting holes.  It won't blow you away, but it's hard to stop thinking of just how well done it is. 

County Down - Had the course to myself on a beautiful Belfast morning, for which I paid the princely sum of $78 Australian dollars.   Probably the best conditioned course I have ever seen with greens that were almost Sandbelt quick.  The front nine in staggeringly good, the back nine less so.  Liked 16 strategically, but the bunkers are terrible.  It's strange that a club of this stature and means would leave them like that.

County Louth - some really good holes mixed with a few plain ones, but worth seeing just for 5 and 14, and that still leaves 3,4,6,12 and 15.  The first two have a cleverness to them the lesser holes on the back nine don't.

Portmarnock - A course you definitely need to see more than once.    I loved the mixture of greens, the changes of direction and the subtleties of the holes.

Mark,

Thanks for the summary. when I look at the full list of courses you played in Ireland, England & Scotland it appears to be almost the perfect mix.

Never made it to New Zealand then?

[Ivan Morris]

There's a lot of wisdom and acute comment in Mark Ferguson's 'report.' There's too much praise for Carne but he has Lahinch and Portmarnock spot on. He is too hard on Sandy Hills at Rosapenna. Perhaps, he should have played the Morris Course? It's less drama but more fun.

[Ally Mcintosh]

There's a lot of wisdom and acute comment in Mark Ferguson's 'report.' There's too much praise for Carne but he has Lahinch and Portmarnock spot on. He is too hard on Sandy Hills at Rosapenna. Perhaps, he should have played the Morris Course? It's less drama but more fun.

Ivan, I think he would have played the Old Course at Rosapenna but it closes for winter.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

First 3 ok and after that do not agree with much.

[Sean_A]

Mark

It would be interesting to think what isn't boring if Enniscrone's 5th & 7th are boring - both excellent holes.  I do take the point that the 5s rumble through dunes a bit too much, but the 7th is the one par 5 unlike the others.  That said, all the 5s have something about them and are reachable for the very brave.

Probably the biggest issue you missed at Notts are the average greens.  I would also say the bunkering is not adventurous either.  When I compare these two issues to Woking,  which is generally thought less of, its a landslide against Notts.  But your comment on the texture of the course is well taken.  I also really like how the holes move around the property.  Notts is also quite unusual for a big course to retain some of the quirky stuff - something the London heathlands generally lack.   

I wouldn't mind a more detailed explanation of "awkward" greens at Lahinch.  Especially when the world is qualified with "way too".  Seems like you are way out on a half cracked limb to me.  That said, I wasn't convinced by the 16th.  #6 has a very cool green.  I don't have any clue what you are talking about for #11 - seemed quite straight forward to me, but I still think the hole should be used for relief in favour of Dr Mac's original - its a very cool hole.   

I wonder what "sensational" means for Strandhill.  I like the place a lot and would happily return, but I am not under any illusion that its quality is anywhere near the ball park of Lahinch. 

I agree with you on Carne, but like Strandhill, its good value so I can't be overly critical - its plenty good enough for the money.  Not sure I can say the same for many of the Irish big guns.   

Ciao

[Mark_F]

Shame you didn't see Dunfanaghy.

Jeff,

I actually arrived at a turning that indicated Dunfanaghy about 20 miles in the opposite direction I was heading.  I had time, and sat there for a moment or two debating whether to take the turn.  Next time.

I could certainly build a trip around Portsalon, Strandhill, and Narin and Portnoo.

I agree.  You could spend a week or playing just those three and have a damn good - and relatively cheap -  time.

Mark,
Thanks for the summary. when I look at the full list of courses you played in Ireland, England & Scotland it appears to be almost the perfect mix.
Never made it to New Zealand then?

Ally,

It was a pretty good mix of courses.  Despite carrying a sore back through much of it, I had a great time.  I'm especially glad I saw courses like Strandhill, Narin, Portsalon and Northwest ahead of some bigger names.

I was thinking about playing New Zealand or Woking the day before I went back home, but it was really cold and frosty - I assumed either course wouldn't have been much fun in those conditions, more's the pity, as I felt well enough for one last round.

There's a lot of wisdom and acute comment in Mark Ferguson's 'report.' There's too much praise for Carne but he has Lahinch and Portmarnock spot on. He is too hard on Sandy Hills at Rosapenna. Perhaps, he should have played the Morris Course? It's less drama but more fun. 

Ivan,

I unashamedly admit to liking Carne far more than perhaps it is due, but it is just a really great, simple place, with a wonderful atmosphere, at least to me. 

I was planning on playing both courses at Rosapenna, but, as Ally said, the OTM course closes early November.  I did like a few of the holes toward the end, but they can't redeem what has gone on beforehand.  I don't have anything against the difficult from tee to green/easy putting surface type of course, I just don't think it was pulled off particularly well here. 

If Pat Ruddy gets the job on the new land, perhaps I am mistaken.  If it goes to someone else, I would assume it validates more than repudiates my point of view.

[Mark_F]

Probably the biggest issue you missed at Notts are the average greens.  I would also say the bunkering is not adventurous either.  When I compare these two issues to Woking,  which is generally thought less of, its a landslide against Notts.  But your comment on the texture of the course is well taken.  I also really like how the holes move around the property.  Notts is also quite unusual for a big course to retain some of the quirky stuff - something the London heathlands generally lack. 

Sean,
It's obviously difficult to fully evaluate a course after playing mostly on temps - next time I visit it will be at a time of the year when these pissweak posh clubs don't close down as soon as it gets a little chilly. 

I thought Notts had a great mix of simple, strong holes like 2,4,12, 15 and 17, with more subtle stuff like 3,10,11,16 and 18.  It's a big routing over a large piece of land, yet wasn't a difficult walk that left you drained at the end.

I wonder what "sensational" means for Strandhill.  I like the place a lot and would happily return, but I am not under any illusion that its quality is anywhere near the ball park of Lahinch. 

Strandhill has a great mix of everything.  One of a kind holes like 1, 5 and 13, with more typical links holes like 3,7, 10 and 16.  It has a really good mix of greens, from crinkle cut potato chip type greens such as 7 and 9, subtle efforts like 15, a couple of great uphill plateau greens with false fronts at 10 and 18, to just simply great greens like 5 and 16.  It takes you on a pretty good journey, utilising all the varying landforms in a neat way.

Your stance and subsequent ball flight will be tested on a lot of holes, whilst others have more sedate fairway movement. You will hit to greens and fairways above you, below you and level with you.  It also has a number of something I particularly like - holes like 1,2 9,14 and 16 that are more difficult when played downwind.

The only holes I didn't particularly care for were 4, 11 and 17.  That leaves 15 pretty good holes, for a damn good price.

It would be interesting to think what isn't boring if Enniscrone's 5th & 7th are boring - both excellent holes.  I do take the point that the 5s rumble through dunes a bit too much, but the 7th is the one par 5 unlike the others.  That said, all the 5s have something about them and are reachable for the very brave. 

The 5th green can be attacked from smack in the middle of the fairway.  There's no need to go anywhere near the bunkers, water or dune.  I didn't particularly care for the green - I thought it tried way too hard to make something out of nothing. 7 - drive from a high tee to a football field.  I'm a little hazy on the details, but I don't recall what the purpose of the cross bunkers was for.  If you lay up short, you're blind, if you go over you end up in a dip with the green above you?  It's a great green site, with a fairly bland putting surface. 

1 and 12 are two of the more bizarre holes you will ever encounter, even if the first does have an excellent green. 3 and 11 are very good par threes, even if 3 is one of the most difficult you could ever play.  As I said elsewhere, it's a nice course, it just feels as if the holes should be better.  They're okay, but on that land, you need world class holes, and that hasn't been achieved. 

I wouldn't mind a more detailed explanation of "awkward" greens at Lahinch.  Especially when the world is qualified with "way too".  Seems like you are way out on a half cracked limb to me.  That said, I wasn't convinced by the 16th.  #6 has a very cool green.  I don't have any clue what you are talking about for #11 - seemed quite straight forward to me, but I still think the hole should be used for relief in favour of Dr Mac's original - its a very cool hole. 

I don't have any photos of my own, so I have stolen them from Patrick Glynn's review.
The 14th, one of the untouched greens.  It has quite gentle, broad slopes, yet a reasonable amount of movement and slope.


Perhaps not the best angle, but Hawtree's 16th is all over the place. It looks much worse from the tee, with sharp ridges and the countours too broad and flowing.


The 6th has the same problem.  It's a fine hole, and a wonderful second shot by virtue of its location, but the green complex is forced onto its surroundings instead of being draped upon it.


I wish I had taken a shot of 11.  This is a wonderful image, but doesn't really show how the hole sits strangely in its surroundings.


I'm probably being overly picky, yet I find it strange that Hawtree has managed some very good, subtle work such as the 1st and 8th greens, with stuff that is very out of character. The course guide intimates that the 5th green was rebuilt, yet you wouldn't think so. There are some very good holes at Lahinch, yet despite its recent renovation, it very much had a bits and pieces feel to it, which is a shame.  4,5,9 and 14 in particular are terrific holes, and as the first course I played in Ireland it will always be memorable, I just wish it wasn't for some of the above reasons.

[Sean_A]

For Enniscrone's 5th I think the bunkers do protect against a right hand hole location while the dune cutting in protects against the left hand hole location.  In essence, this is a penal driving hole nothing wrong with that.  I think you are off with the green - rising the from the fairway with the road hole type bunker left - ts fantastic. 




The 7th has a lovely peninsula green that does run to the back and away from the dune.  I like that this par 5 is more n the flat compared to the others which even though are different from each other, feel samey because they run through dunes.  I think this was a mistake in the redesign.  I suspect the natural alleys dictated this decision-making, but perhaps a more radical over the dunes blind hole could have made all the difference.  It would also be an excuse to break-up the funky 12/13 combo. 

I do think Enniscrone has world class holes; #s 15 & 17 come to mind.




Concerning Lahinch, I guess I am not nearly as bothered by natural looking greens laying over the land.  I like that sort of design, but don't demand it.  Still, two of the holes you question, I do as well.  I am assuming there were growing issues with Mac's 11th, otherwise, I can't get my head around building another short hole on the higher ground next to it.  The view is nice, but the hole isn't nearly as crafty as Mac's.  The 16th just looks odd from the tee.  For us it played pretty long - drop shots are always tough to judge when playing with wind.  But I think my visual issue is the bunkers - not the green.  They don't seem to be facing the golfer and in general, look too wishy washy. 



The 6th green, while a bit strange looking, is a very cool green - big thumbs up from me.  My problem with the hole is the hollow breaking up the fairway.  Either make the hollow all sand or all short grass.  The way it is maintained now is stupid.

Ciao







 

[Ivan Morris]

Good stuff, Sean! There ARE some excellent holes at Enniscrone - 2, 5, 9 and 15-18 but is that enough for a 'great' golf course?  Being picky, as you say, I am not much of a fan of Hawtree's changes to the 11th and 16th at Lahinch, either. The 6th and 16th greens are way too severe in high winds, the stepped ridges play havoc with many a well-played stroke. The 'mine' at the 6th is a terrific feature, I'd leave it as it is. I'll commit a sacrilege by suggesting that the Klondyke Hill (4th) should be blasted to kingdom come and inverted into a mine feature similar to the 6th. The hole would then become a brilliant par 4. I'll further stun you by saying my favorite feature at Lahinch is the Castle Course. Try it sometime! 

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