News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kyle Harris

On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« on: December 01, 2012, 11:30:40 AM »
My twitter feed, set afire a week ago by the announced changes to St. Andrew’s Old, has finally calmed down. The surprisingly swift – and broad reaching – uproar over the changes dominated like no other issue in the past year. Naturally, this is a result of my bias toward golf-related accounts and issues and my general disdain for those who post more political or social rantings through that particular media.

Until now, I remained content to watch the discourse unfold as I have no emotional appeal from which to draw ire or support. I have never journeyed to St. Andrew’s. I don’t share the connection to the place that those who invested the time and energy to learn the course do. However, I hope to some day. I am capable of connecting to a golf course and can relate to the feeling of having to alter my convictions due to changes that, despite my strong emotional connection, are out of my control. My lack of pathos for this issue combined with my general curiosity regarding the construction of rhetoric lead me to review the history of St. Andrew’s Old Course. My largest source is Forrest Richardson’s wonderful chapter regarding the Old Course in his book, Routing the Golf Course.

No golf course can exist without some influence and change from man. This is an unavoidable fact and it must be established first and foremost. The act of choosing land for golf necessitates alterations and maintenance to preserve the sporting nature of the act. St. Andrew’s Old, in it’s 500 year history, never escaped or stood above this fact. So, breathe easily, I will not try to convince the reader otherwise. However, St. Andrew’s Old is different and I believe that St. Andrew’s Old stands as an Icon of golf’s sporting ethos.

The golf course’s first, and only necessary, influence from man are the locations of the holes. The concept of target is man-made and little exigency derives from blindly golfing a ball across the land to no end. What stands St. Andrew’s apart from the rest of our surviving golf courses is that the addition (or subtraction as St. Andrew’s at one point had eleven holes – twenty-two total – played out and back) is where man’s influence ends for the most part. Formal, revetted bunkers exist on the course for the purpose of maintenance and preservation. Until this year, I believe there to be less than ten bunkers on the golf course that were added in places where none had previously existed.

Therefore, the idea of sanctity regarding man’s lack of influence at St. Andrew’s Old holds some weight. The routing bones of the golf course remain unaltered by the hand of man except for additions and subtractions necessitated by maintenance considerations and accommodating the increasing popularity of the sport. Allan Robertson widened the corridor (let’s avoid calling it a fairway) to better accommodate the two-way traffic on the Old Course’s shared fairways. Old Tom Morris separated the first/seventeenth green for a similar reason. In doing so, he gave the golfing world the Road Hole putting green. Let’s note here that the Road Hole putting green remains one of the few true constructions of man on the golf course. I think it important to consider the idea that all the above changes were made to accommodate popularity of play and not necessarily to alter the challenges of the sport.

I propose that the uproar caused by these latest changes rattled the visceral urges upon which the sport of golf is founded. Almost without question, every golf course’s history and development can be traced to the variable intentions and competence of someone modifying, altering or suiting the terrain for a sport long played elsewhere. While obvious that man at some point had to identify the hole locations for St. Andrews, the names and faces of these people are long forgotten to the faded obscurity of history. St. Andrew’s Old allowed us to suspend disbelief moreso than any other golf course because these faces – and their connected egos – live in the mere abstraction of the concept. St. Andrew’s Old mystery may very well come from the fact that the answer as to who first determined this was suitable linksland for the sport, and how the golfer shall maneuver through these links, can never be determined. Their only face is in what we take away from the experience of the course.

An irony here is that St. Andrew’s is likely the product of someone, or a group, who would never be able to replicate the results elsewhere. I have read with some bemusement that the current plans and changes are like putting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. I find this analogy insulting to St. Andrew’s Old. We know more of the origins of the Mona Lisa than we may ever know of the origins of St. Andrew’s. While the purpose of the Mona Lisa may never be concretely determined, we know plenty more about its creator and his other work. St. Andrew’s stands above even this.

St. Andrew’s Old has largely been a product of the collected work of its curators. People who preserve the aboriginal instead of rewrite the original. The latest changes represent losing a piece of this that is comparatively small but not trivial. Let us consider it for what it is.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 11:48:33 AM »
Kyle:

The most important thing to me is the fact that The Old Course was not really DESIGNED by any person, the result of which is less definition in how best to play the holes and more complications.  Anything designed by an architect would be far easier to decipher, because you could see the 3-4 ideas that he was trying to reinforce.

By continuing with the proposed changes, Messrs. Dawson and Hawtree are forcing their own limited views of design onto a course that previously offered infinite possibilities.  They are giving the course definition, the lack of which was the one thing that set The Old Course apart from everything else.

Kyle Harris

Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2012, 11:58:11 AM »
Kyle:

The most important thing to me is the fact that The Old Course was not really DESIGNED by any person, the result of which is less definition in how best to play the holes and more complications.  Anything designed by an architect would be far easier to decipher, because you could see the 3-4 ideas that he was trying to reinforce.

By continuing with the proposed changes, Messrs. Dawson and Hawtree are forcing their own limited views of design onto a course that previously offered infinite possibilities.  They are giving the course definition, the lack of which was the one thing that set The Old Course apart from everything else.

Tom:

I agree.

The interesting thing to me, which tipped off this essay, is that the uproar has come from far corners of the golfing meta-landscape. People that would otherwise not agree on anything agree on this.

I think we are all confronting that even the most natural and so-called pure of golfing grounds can be dominated by the provenance of man, all because it is a victim of the course's own popularity. Perhaps an idea is to start something very rudimentary that only a few would ever play. 

Is Alfie Ward still around? I've always found his Arbory Brae course to be novel. I hope it lasts for a few hundred years to see where it is then.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/arbory-brae/

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 12:49:21 PM »
Kyle

You are mistaken when you write:

"Until this year, I believe there to be less than ten bunkers on the golf course that were added in places where none had previously existed."

Tom Jarrett, who wrote the most authoritative book on St. Andews Links (1995) wrote:

"Most of the bunkers on the outward holes........are man made..."  I count at least 35 of them, most of which were added by John Low in the early part of the 20th century."

In addition, a number of bunkers have been filled in (and some of these re-opened) over the past 150 years as the powers that were tinkered with the course almost incessantly.  As you may also know there were proposals in the late 19th-early 20th century to either: 

1.  Start a new outward loop from the left of the current second extending around to catch up with the existing inward nine @ the Shephered's crook area of todays Old Course

2.  Create a new "Super Course" on the land where the Jubilee course now sits, relegating the Old Course to secondary status.

Rightly or wrongly, the custodians of the St. Andrews Links have always been receptive to change, as have the custodians of almost all great golf courses in the world.  You and Tom and others may not like it, and of course have the right to try to change their minds, but I think you are tilting at windmills, and may in fact be harming your cause by your seeming intransigence ("rock, meet hard place"; "hard place, meet rock") and the fact that you seem to ignore any history which does not support your point of view.

By all means keep trying to articulate your beliefs and influence others, but if you want your efforts to be rewarded, you will do better if you deal with facts rather than idealisations.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Kyle Harris

Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 12:58:29 PM »
Thank you Rich.

I will not correct the original article as it was my belief and understanding that this was the case. Did Low's work emphasize proto-bunkers or completely add new for some purpose? I am intrigued by this evolution.

I am not attempting to idealize The Old Course, my intent is to analyze the reaction to the changes.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2012, 01:04:14 PM »
From what I have read, Kyle, most of Low's bunkers were newly built wee shallow pots, down the right hand side of the front 9 (holes 2-6 particularly), whose purpose was to somehow recreate the gorse that used to line that side of those fairways before the course was dramatically widened in the 1850's and the New Course built in 1894.  A few years earlier, OTM had built Mr. and Mrs. Kruger's bunkers on the 9th, commemorating the Boer War.  Buy Jarrett's book if you can find a cheap copy.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2012, 01:19:36 PM »
Rich writes (do I detect a bit of hauteur in his voice?): "...if you want your efforts to be rewarded, you will do better if you deal with facts rather than idealisations."

Good idea.

There were any number of changes made to TOC thorugh the early 1920's. No version of the course prior to that dae would serve as a useful measure against which changes should be gauged.

We do have, however, one of the most remarkable and detailed maps every done of a golf course in MacK's 1923 drawing of the Old Course. That drawing would be a useful starting point. The course depicted, or something very close to it, is the course most of us saw on TV as kids and have played since.

Have there been changes since then? Sure, but none I know of a material nature and certainly none that approach the scope of those currently proposed. Has the course been maintained in different ways since? Sure. It's had its ups and downs. But the different maintenance practices didn't materially change the course.

I think its silly to argue that since changes were made in the past, who are we to complain about what Dawson is doing today? Particularly when his changes boil down to doing things to the course that he hopes will protect it against the professional game. It's a fool's errand for any course to pursue. I know of no course that has done that successfully. But it is especially foolish when, as with the Old Course, it comes at such a cost to history.

Bob  

Kyle Harris

Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 01:46:26 PM »
Bob,

Perhaps you are lumping me into a category I do not belong.

I don't want my efforts to be rewarded nor am I idealizing the golf course. I believe the Old Course is an Icon of the idea of golf's sporting nature as first explored by Max Behr.

As with many icons, the facts of the symbol and that which they represent are often miles apart.

Kyle Harris

Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 01:50:27 PM »
Also, am I to believe the addition of 35 bunkers to replicate erstwhile gorse was not to add an element of difficulty and furthermore not of a large scale to be comparable to these latest changes?

Why is Mackenzie's 1923 map or the course since television dawned so sacrosanct as well?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 01:57:40 PM »
Also, am I to believe the addition of 35 bunkers to replicate erstwhile gorse was not to add an element of difficulty and furthermore not of a large scale to be comparable to these latest changes?

Why is Mackenzie's 1923 map or the course since television dawned so sacrosanct as well?

I don't think an addition of fairway bunkers to replicate gorse is comparable to reshaping greens and altering some of the green surrounds (2, 11, and 17) that have not been touched to my knowledge.

Fairway bunkers may make a golfer less inclined to play a hole one way, but changing the putting surfaces and runoffs is a forced change and one that changes the playing characteristics of a hole in a more permanent fashion. Strategy starts at the green, and some of these changes near the green have the potential to alter strategy more than a fairway bunker could. Of course, these changes could turn out ok, but those changes seem invasive to a greater degree.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 02:02:16 PM by Alex Miller »

Kyle Harris

Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2012, 02:02:09 PM »
What makes adding bunkers a non-forced changed as opposed to changing a green being a forced change?

If the changes to the putting surface are indeed to add a hole location - needed or not - doesn't overcoming the reluctance to place a hole there add options?

How many recovery options are there from the Low bunkers?

I find a lot of this rhetoric troubling, inconsistent and arbitrary.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 02:27:57 PM »
What makes adding bunkers a non-forced changed as opposed to changing a green being a forced change?

If the changes to the putting surface are indeed to add a hole location - needed or not - doesn't overcoming the reluctance to place a hole there add options?

How many recovery options are there from the Low bunkers?

I find a lot of this rhetoric troubling, inconsistent and arbitrary.

I didn't mean to trouble you, but I suppose much of the discussion about changing green contours and surrounds at TOC will be arbitrary since it hasn't been done to the same degree as the proposed changes.

Old Tom separated the 1st and 17th greens to expedite play and create a safer environment around the 18th tee (if I'm wrong please correct me), but the changes were not to make the golf hole more difficult for championship events. The precedent set by these new changes is to change the course with only the top .05% of golfers in mind as opposed to the golfing public. Same with the 11th hole: adding a new hole location is a change that didn't have to be made and was done so to create a new hole location for The Open. Simply put, there was no need for these changes to be done.

You ask how many options are there from the Low bunkers? Well, they are penal so few and far between would be my answer. But that misses the point of what I was saying entirely. My point is, that depending on the conditions and pin location of the day the Low bunkers may be near the ideal line of approach. If a golfer wants to go near them then they can still find fairway and get a reward for placing their shot well. The option is still there, but the decision to hit over there is simply discouraged by the bunkers rather than altered completely.

Conversely, Mr. Dawson said that the front left of the Road Hole green would be altered so that the "catch slope" which gathers balls toward the road hole bunker would be expanded. Does it discourage the golfer from playing as close to the bunker? Yes. Would it be as easy to restore this slope to what it was before the changes as it would be to filling in a fairway bunker? I'm not sure. And, yes, I do think that altering the slope can potentially have a greater impact on the strategy of the hole than a fairway bunker would.

There are other thread discussing the Road Hole, the second hole and the new greenside bunkers, and the Eden, so I'm not sure delving further into the details of each here is good for this discussion, but hopefully my rhetoric seems more consistent now, speculative as it may be.

Kyle Harris

Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 02:56:13 PM »
Alex,

I think that clarifies things and you seem to agree with a lot of the points I am trying to make with my initial post.

While I tend to think that the Old Course (and most golf courses) should be left alone for considerably more time than they typically are, I generally find it jarring when people try to rationalize their arguments through inconsistent logic.

No matter how one shakes it, 35 bunkers is a lot. If they are penal in nature, their addition to the golf course adds a rather stark penalty to the strategic option presented by that angle. Comparatively, mitigating the reluctance to use a hole location on a putting green by flattening it (let's just avoid the green speed side of the argument for now) has the potential to add a play route or two to the hole since a new angle is presented by the new availability of the hole. What is the functional difference? Why is the much more broad reaching intent with the addition of the bunkers less obtrusive than the current outline of changes?

The intent of my original post is sociological. This is yet one less thing about which we can truly suspend disbelief. For me, the tinkering should stop for this purpose alone and not to preserve any so-called architectural integrity.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 03:44:20 PM »
Kyle,


I also like understanding where people are coming from in their opinions and arguments as it is far more helpful in facilitating discussion than getting "you are wrong" shouted at me over and over. If I am able to understand their logic, and find the inconsistencies (either in my own or their own logic) everything becomes much easier. We are in complete agreement here!

I agree, 35 bunkers is a lot! One reason I am more okay with tinkering with the playing corridors is that there is clear precedent for it. I still don't like the decision process, or what we know about it to this point, of the most recent changes.

Perhaps a more apt metaphor for the fairway bunker changes in the case of TOC is like tinkering with the border of a constantly evolving artwork. When the course was in its infancy, it probably did not look exactly as it does today (it didn't), but it was probably 12"X12". Today it may be 18"X18" with a some more intricate carvings in the frame, but that original 12"X12" is pretty much the same. The new 3" of width on each side have now aged for long enough with the course that it ties in to the original area and looks good. The additional 6" of height (length) is definitely newer, but for many golfers it's not even on display.

As for the green alterations, I'm not sure that the proposition of adding more hole locations can be looked at as a 100% positive. What affect will this change have for other hole locations? We just don't know that at this point. Even if these changes were A++ and improved the hole in an unquestionable way, it is still changing a part of the course that was untouched previously, or at least remained untouched for a very long time.

So I suppose if we are going back to the art metaphor (and I know doing so is more arbitrary, but I think it illustrates the difference in the changes being made with context to TOC), changing the contours of the greens and adding greenside bunkers is like putting fresh paint over some of the original 12"X12" area.

To summarize: there is clear precedence for changes to the playing corridors but much less for altering the contours of the greens, architectural and strategic merit of the changes aside.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 10:13:49 PM »
Kyle.  I enjoyed reading your post.

Despite what Rich claims, the custodians of the Old Course haven't been receptive to design change for the past 80-90 years; as Bob shows the Mackenzie plan is very close to the course as it was until a week ago.  And looking through old photos and TV coverage of Opens, Shell Match etc shows a scruffier course, but other than that it's much the same.

I doubt any course has come close to providing as much golfing fun/pleasure in those 80-90 years (how many individuals have played it during that time!?).  Which I think is a simple and good enough reason to leave it be.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 07:08:38 AM »
Kyle.  I enjoyed reading your post.

Despite what Rich claims, the custodians of the Old Course haven't been receptive to design change for the past 80-90 years; as Bob shows the Mackenzie plan is very close to the course as it was until a week ago.  And looking through old photos and TV coverage of Opens, Shell Match etc shows a scruffier course, but other than that it's much the same.

I doubt any course has come close to providing as much golfing fun/pleasure in those 80-90 years (how many individuals have played it during that time!?).  Which I think is a simple and good enough reason to leave it be.

Well said Paul.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 07:48:19 AM »
Kyle.  I enjoyed reading your post.

Despite what Rich claims, the custodians of the Old Course haven't been receptive to design change for the past 80-90 years; as Bob shows the Mackenzie plan is very close to the course as it was until a week ago.  And looking through old photos and TV coverage of Opens, Shell Match etc shows a scruffier course, but other than that it's much the same.

I doubt any course has come close to providing as much golfing fun/pleasure in those 80-90 years (how many individuals have played it during that time!?).  Which I think is a simple and good enough reason to leave it be.

Paul (and Neil and Bob)

Thanks for the theories, but I have just now decided to have a re-look at MacKenzie's 1924 diagram and now sincerely wonder:  How could you possibly say that? ???

For one thing, of course, MacKenzie draws a 6,576 yard course whereas the current one is 7,279 and counting.  Yes, I know, that back tees don't matter to some, but they do to anybody who plays the course seriously and not just for a laugh or partial enlightenment.

Secondly, as beautiful and meticulously drawn as the MacKenzie map is, it is a 2D drawing and thus can tell us absolutely nothing about even the most significant contours (e.g. the ridge on the 4th) much less any of the micro-contours that all of us love and about whose possible loss there has been a lot of handwringing on this site over the past week or so.  Does MacKenzie's map tell us anything about the slopes on #11, other than a shading that implies it is steep on the back left?  Does it tell us anything at all about the Road Hole bunker rather than a rough idea of it's location?  Does it tell us anything about the right hand side of the 2nd green?  Well, yes, in fact in regard to the latter....

....if you look closely at MacKenzie's map you will see that the 2nd green in 1924 was SUBSTANTIALLY narrower than the green that is now being modified.  The Wig Bunker, which is behind and now ~100 yards to the left of the right hand side of the green was within 20-30 yards of the right hand side in 1924, according to MacKenzie.  When did all that additional green space get added to that green and by whom?  If we don't know that answer, why is it so sacrosanct?  Does this discrepancy between MacKenzie's map and recent aerial photographs not blow out of the water the theory that nothing architecturally significant has been done to the course over the past 80-90 years?

Inquiring minds want to know...... :o

Slaintge

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 08:25:39 AM »
Talk of the 17th has me perplexed.  Folks don't want to see that become a gathering bunkering - is that right?  The argument being more people will be inclined to lay-up.  That could be true, but what happens on their third?  If the hole is up front, the third is much more difficult shot.  If the hole is in the mid to rear of the green, there isn't much difference unless the lay-up is horribly to the left - which is the wrong position in any case.  

Do folks really want the 1924 version of the slopes not feeding the Road Hole Bunker?  If so, I can't agree.  My basic philosophy when folks want to change courses includes rather than messing with the easier holes, I would rather the tougher holes are made tougher.  They are difficult pars for the handicap player anyway.  


This photo also clearly demonstrates how much the slopes around that bunker have altered over the years.  So yes, TOC is an icon and yes, if it were all up to me I would probably let sleeping dogs lie if only to save money.  BUT, change doesn't inherently equal bad even if it were true that nothing has changed on TOC in 80 or 90 years. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 08:33:57 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 09:40:14 AM »
Thanks for that photo, Sean.  It is very similar to the ~1975 photo of the RHB in the First Edition of the World Atlas of Golf.  Obviously a lot has changed in the past 40 years....

Good points also about the value of making the RHB a gathering one.  I think there is a consensus on this site that gathering bunkers are preferable to ones whose surrounds divert errant golf balls into safer positions or even halt them in their tracks .  Why shouldn't one of the most important bunkers in the world of golf be a gathering one?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 09:51:18 AM »
Kyle

Interesting thread. You raise a good question in why stop the clock in 1923 ? Just because we have MacKenzies map, I don't think so. Its a very useful tool in helping to trace the evolution of the old course but as Rich has pointed out it does have its limitations.

Also with regards to man made changes I would have thought the construction of the first fairway and the pushing back of the 18th green by 50 or 60 yards, or whatever it was, to a new man made green would be fairly significant also.

Niall

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 10:27:00 AM »
Sean

We know the RHB has changed in shape plenty through the years.  But what about the front portion of the green that they appear to want to reshape.

Rich

Of course you are correct on your points (I didn't want to state the obvious with the back tees).  The second green was extended before 1932.  Bunkers have been reshaped but can you find any examples of the micro contour of the greens being engineered into different shapes since then?  And why is it a good idea now?

"evolution" implies gradual change. The current work is an engineering experiment.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 10:34:27 AM »
Looking at that 1924 photo is that mounding on the road side of the green ? Surely not.

Niall

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 10:49:49 AM »
Paul

As you know, I have lived in and played links golf in Scotland for several decades, and as a result have had the opportunity to see both gradual change and "engineering" on all of the courses I have played regularly during this period.  Firstly, I have observed that"gradual change" often leads to engineering, even on some of the greatest and most protective of courses.  For example, the left hand bunkers at the 6th at Royal Dornoch were re-engineered a few years ago to reduce the sand build-up on their lips, and slightly flatten the micro-contours from the bunker to the putting surface.  A similar thing was done to the front bunkers on the 10th, and this winter they are working on the left hand greenside bunker as we "spaak."  My most recent game of golf was a few weeks ago at Lundin Links, and they are rebuilding and re-contouring numerous bunkers and bunker tie-ins/surrounds.

As others have wisely said on other related threads, over time contours on links courses change through wind and rain and the feet of golfers and the gouging action of their clubs.  Sometimes the cumulative effect of these functions required some "re-engineering."  Why is that so bad?

Finally, as to the 11th, probably the most important bit of history on that hole was in 1920 when Bobby Jones tore up his card in anger and disgust after being stuck behind a back of the green pin location.  This years work on that hole that you seem to despise is only bringing back that historic pin position into general play.  What is wrong with that?  Even Ran, in his very thoughtful piece on another thread, seems to "get it."  Why can't you?

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 01:11:32 PM »
"Finally, as to the 11th, probably the most important bit of history on that hole was in 1920 when Bobby Jones tore up his card in anger and disgust after being stuck behind a back of the green pin location.  This years work on that hole that you seem to despise is only bringing back that historic pin position into general play.  What is wrong with that?  Even Ran, in his very thoughtful piece on another thread, seems to "get it."  Why can't you?"

Rich -

Where did you get the story above? I've never heard it before. I have read numerous places, including in pieces written by Jones, Keeler and others (see George Peper's recent piece on the Eden Hole), that in 1921 Jones failed to extricate himself from the Hill Bunker after 4 goes at it and then tore up his card. Are those accounts erroneous? On a related note, I've never heard of a 'Jones' pin location on the Eden.  

On a broader note, what is a picture of the RHB in 1924 supposed to signify? That the hole we have know from soon thereafter is different and, therefore, the coast is now clear to make other TOC holes stiffer tests for the pros?

That the Old Course is fodder for the bright ideas of the next architecture hired by the Links Trust, since it's been changed in the past?

I ask because it's child's play to come up with clever ideas. We could all come up with any number of them. But that ought to be understood as a lose/lose proposition. TOC can not be shored up in any meaningful way against the Tigers and Dustins and Rorys today. And, worse, trying to do so will over time erode the things that once made TOC unique.    

Bob



  





Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: On St. Andrew's Old - Golf's Sporting Icon
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 02:07:58 PM »
Mea Culpa, Bob

I seem to have overmisunderexaggerated my understanding of Bobby Jones' volcanic eruption on the 11th in 1920.  I'll take your word that he tore up his card in the Hill bunker in his historic hissy fit rather than in that unnamed bunker behind the green.  My memory must have failed me.  Sorry.

Regardless, there has been a pinnable position back left in the past at #11, and bringing it back into play is no big deal, IMHO.  As others have said, the work being done will do virtually nothing to affect how the hole is played when the pin is in its traditional place (and sometimes boring, as Ran has said) behind the Strath.

All I have been trying to say on the various threads is that change happens, regardless of MacKenzie's gormless quote regurgitated in Huggan's generally useless post in today's Scotsman, to wit:

"St. Andrews differs from others in that it has always been deemed a sacrilege to interfere with it's natural beauties, and has been left almost untouched for centuries."

Gag me with a spoon! (Alistair and John) that is just not true.......

PS--I just was interrupted by a phone call from somebody who has actually seen the work being done up in NE Fife, and would like to wait to comment further until I have talked to him in depth and even gone up there to look at the allegated desecration myself.

Please allow me this continuance, counsellor.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi