If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Crane,

The biggest short coming in analyzing greens is the inability of the camera to clearly define contour and slope.

Some day, some one will perfect a method that depicts what the eye sees.

There are probably computer programs that can graph elevation changes (contour & slope) down to half and inch, but, it's not the same as a clear photo.

There's a course that I've been visiting/playing for over 60 years and some of the bunkers are right up against the green, yet, there's no evidence of sand splash altering the putting surface in terms of contour and slope.

How many times a day do golfers have their ball land in the same spot in a bunker, a spot where sand splash will fall on a green ?

And, with daily mowing, wind, rain, irrigation and foot traffic how would it be possible for the contour/slope of a green to change ?

If greens don't change their contours/slopes with top dressing, why would we expect greens to change their contour/slope with sand splash, which is so random and often doesn't reach the green ?

[David_Tepper]

On this thread and on another thread (regarding possible changes in green contours), eight working GCAs and golf course superintendents have said that "sand splash" from greenside bunkers can alter green contours over time. Pat Mucci has stated otherwise

I wonder who we should believe?    

[JESII]

There's a course that I've been visiting/playing for over 60 years and some of the bunkers are right up against the green, yet, there's no evidence of sand splash altering the putting surface in terms of contour and slope.

Which course?

Are you suggesting your memory of each contour along all greenside bunkers over 60 years is intact? If so, are you also suggesting you're aware of any action the greens crew may have taken over those 60 years to counter act the buildup of sand?

[Sean McCue]

On this thread and on another thread (regarding possible changes in green contours), eight working GCAs and golf course superintendents have said that "sand splash" from greenside bunkers can alter green contours over time. Pat Mucci has stated otherwise

I wonder who we should believe?    

I go with the guy that is working on the ground every day. That guy happens to be me, I have been at the same course the last 17 years as the Superintendent and subtle changes that occur daily really add up before you know it.  I will take my memory over a members memory all day long regarding how things use to be.

Hell, half the time I speak with members regarding the course and their specific issues they consistently get the hole number wrong that they have concerns about.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

On this thread and on another thread (regarding possible changes in green contours), eight working GCAs and golf course superintendents have said that "sand splash" from greenside bunkers can alter green contours over time. Pat Mucci has stated otherwise

David,

I can see that your reading comprehension skills are in rapid decline.

Most referenced areas outside of the putting surface, not within the putting surface.

If top dressing, applied regularly to a putting surface, doesn't alter putting surface contours, how can sand splash, applied from a distance, infrequently and randomly, alter contours ?

60 years of close observation on the same course is a reliable data base.

I wonder who we should believe?    

Take your pick 

[David_Tepper]

Pat M. -

With the subsequent comments from Sean McCue, all of the now nine GCAs/superintendents specifically cite sand splash on green surfaces in their comments.

Even if we were to believe to veracity of your observations regarding this one course you choose not identify, are you suggesting that one course is a sample size sufficient to make a blanket statement about sand splash? How many rounds of play a year does this course get? What are its maintenance practices regarding sand accumulation on the greens? How skilled are the players who play this course on a regular basis? All of these factors can effect how much and how fast sand splash accumulates.

DT

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's a course that I've been visiting/playing for over 60 years and some of the bunkers are right up against the green, yet, there's no evidence of sand splash altering the putting surface in terms of contour and slope.

Which course?

Preakness Hills

Are you suggesting your memory of each contour along all greenside bunkers over 60 years is intact?

Indelibly so.

If so, are you also suggesting you're aware of any action the greens crew may have taken over those 60 years to counter act the buildup of sand?


Since I served on the Green Committee for about 50 of those 60 years, yeah, I'm positive that there was no mitigating practices to counter act a non-existant build up

[Patrick_Mucci]

I go with the guy that is working on the ground every day. That guy happens to be me,
I have been at the same course the last 17 years as the Superintendent and subtle changes that occur daily really add up before you know it. 

If you irrigate your greens daily and if you mow them daily and those same greens are exposed to wind and rain, tell me how sand splash from adjacent bunkers has resulted in altering the contours of the putting surfaces.

Also, why has there been an almost universal consensus that top dressing has not altered the contours in putting surfaces over the years.

I will take my memory over a members memory all day long regarding how things use to be.

Perhaps that speaks to "your" particular membership.
I'm reasonably confident that my memory is both acute and accurate.

Hell, half the time I speak with members regarding the course and their specific issues they consistently get the hole number wrong that they have concerns about.

I believe that my IQ provides me with the ability to differentiate between the holes.
Ditto the architectural features and their relationship to one another.

Are you questioning the intelligence and judgement of the the same members that hired you ? 

[paul cowley]

Patrick...are you still beating this dog? give it up.

Sand slash on the green surface alters both the green and bunker it came from without a high level of daily maintenace..and top dressing greens without removing an equal amount of added sand changes the level and /or contours of a green.

Please start another thread. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick...are you still beating this dog? give it up.

But I like this pup

Sand slash on the green surface alters both the green and bunker it came from without a high level of daily maintenace..and top dressing greens without removing an equal amount of added sand changes the level and /or contours of a green.

What course today doesn't engage in a high degree of daily maintenance ?  ?  ?

Please start another thread. 

I already did

[paul cowley]

Good    heading there now 

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

A lot has to do with bunker design, exposure to the wind and placing of the bunker. At PV I never noticed any noticeable difference near the surrounds when we pulled aeration cores which tells me sand build up from being splashed out of the bunkers, if any, is minimal at most. I'm coming late to the thread but after reading the first post my reaction to the DA was that it's too deep and depending on who last dug it out, the easiest way out is usually backwards...... Getting a splash out of it onto the green is rare, if ever, now and wind is certainly not going to effect it. Same goes for all of PVs bunkers most are deep enough that blast from shots are minimal and the trees certainly protect them from the wind. The only bunker I remember having any wind issues was the one in front of 7 green and it's not an issue any more (not sure what changed but they no longer need to protect it in the winter).

As for removing sand off the greens, I would say it's practice at most courses and most definitely at PV, the crew there take hand blowers with them in the mornings and blow (or at least are supposed to) debris before mowing - just a reminder, sand dulls mowers very quickly;)

Since the thread specifically mentioned the DA, Archie is correct, it was re-contoured in the 80s to help prevent washouts - I want to say a big storm damaged it pretty badly necessitating the work. It still washes out as the water still enters around the edges of the 'bump' and usually only occurs after big storms. The boards were installed to help prevent wall erosion so basically all the sand in there stays there and just needs to be shoveled back up. Therefore there's no worry of damage to the sides/ or worse the green (if the wall collapsed) from a big washout .

Anytime I've seen sandblast build up is usually on open courses with big sand faces and where the green isn't much higher than the bunker. These bunkers are usually placed where they get a lot of use......

Bunker sand buildup on a green can eventually effect internal drainage if it isn't compatible with the soil of the green - which it usually isn't....

[Mark Chaplin]

Alan are you sure you are not mistaken? Pat gets up very early and never saw you or anyone with a blower. 

"I stay overnight at PV and am up very early and have never seen that practice.

Could you detail how they do it, or are you just making an unsubstantiated claim without any first hand information ?"

[David_Tepper]

Mark C. -

I often see the grounds crew at Royal Dornoch with blowers moving the sand splash on the greens and collars back into the bunkers.

DT