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Patrick_Mucci

If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« on: November 30, 2012, 10:13:42 PM »
surface drainage negatively impacted to a good degree ?

In reflecting on courses that I've played, courses that are 80, 90 and 100 years old, I don't recall the perimeters, adjacent to bunkers, elevated to the degree that surface drainage doesn't run into the bunker.

The green/bunker that jumps out at me is the DA on the 10th hole at PV.

For decades that green sloped into the bunker, which was in close proximity to the green.

It wasn't until around the Walker Cup that the area between the bunker and green were altered, and a lip was created that would deflect surface water from directly entering the bunker, along with golf balls. ;D

One would think, that 80, 90 and 100 years of sand splash from a bunker immediately adjacent to a putting surface, would create a deflection plate/plane, redirecting water away from the bunker, but, I don't recall seeing that configuration at # 10 or any other putting surfaces immediately adjacent to bunkers.

Is the impact of sand splash mostly oversated or a myth ?

Do we know, from the void between a photo taken 60 years ago and a recent on site inspection, if sand splash is the culprit, the only culprit, in the difference, or, is the attribution a guess absent information concerning events occuring between the two dates ?

Alex Lagowitz

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 01:43:49 AM »
Pat,

It is very well possible that at one time, the effect you describe happened at PV 10, however, the bunker may have been modified previous to the Walker Cup.  Not majorly, but perhaps they noticed a little bit of build up and fixed it, maybe even without documentation by the super.

Another theory is that PV has a steller maintenance crew, thus sand splash from greens is unlikely to remain in following days.  There would need to be serious neglect for there to be any negligible differences in contouring.  Top dressing is more likely to change contours as the sand is purposely left on the greens. 

Frank Pont

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2012, 01:50:16 AM »
Sand splash from bunkers can be major.

An example; I am currently working at Hardelot (Tom Simpson 1930), where we found at one greenside bunker that sandsplah was almost 50cm (20 inches)! We could determine that because we could see the old topsoil layer under all the splashed sand. So that is 50 cm in 80 years (more like 70 if you exclude the war) so that comes down to 0.7 cm (0.3 inch) per year.

Greg Chambers

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 02:03:06 AM »
Pat,

In all of your sand splash rantings you continue to cite examples from courses where lots of people don't play.  Get out into the public sector, or even the year round privates, and you'll start to understand issues related to sand splash.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Kyle Henderson

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 02:39:03 AM »
To my eye, nearly every green at Pebble Beach GL has been significantly altered by sand splash (e.g. historical photos show the 17th green was not always blind). This makes sense considering their small surface area, the close proximity of the bunkers, and the high traffic. I suspect the greens would have been "desplashed" at some (or several) points in time if closing the course to restore the greens would not involve such a stout financial hit.
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2012, 05:52:25 AM »
"and you'll start to understand issues related to sand splash."

This is the type of snippy comment I would make, but it is incumbent upon me (and in this case, Greg) to give examples of what those "issues" are. While Patrick's example is from a course that many don't play, it doesn't reduce the relevance of his example.

Greg, what issues can you cite to further this thread? Thanks in advance.
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2012, 09:30:14 AM »
Like Frank at Hardelot, we've discovered MAJOR sand splash build-up at the Victoria (B.C.) Golf Club - in some spots close to 2-3 feet at greenside bunkers. At Victoria, this build-up isn't only from sand shots but constant wind blowing sand out of the bunkers as well.

Similar to Hardelot, you can easily see the old topsoil elevation from the 1920s or before (VGC was established in 1893) and 2-3 feet of sand piled on top of that elevation once the grass and sand are removed.

It's quite amazing to see; and, in most cases at Victoria, we've attempted to preserve the evolved elevations of many of the greenside bunkers, because these features have added a lot of character to certain holes.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 12:20:14 PM »
Pat,

It is very well possible that at one time, the effect you describe happened at PV 10,

I can assure you that it didn't.


however, the bunker may have been modified previous to the Walker Cup.  

Modified in what way ?
Do you have any evidence that it was modified or is this just a wild guess ?

I can only speak to 1964 regarding my experience regarding the bunker.
The Walker Cup was in 1985


Not majorly, but perhaps they noticed a little bit of build up and fixed it, maybe even without documentation by the super.

Alex, have you ever been in or seen, in person, the DA bunker on # 10 ?
It's doubtful that three grains of sand in a week escaped the deep, ice cone shaped bunker.


Another theory is that PV has a steller maintenance crew,

Given the configuration of the bunker, that's a wild, wild theory, one borne more out of of wishful thinking than actual experience.


thus sand splash from greens is unlikely to remain in following days.

Are you suggesting that they vacuum their putting surfaces every night ? ;D


There would need to be serious neglect for there to be any negligible differences in contouring.  
Top dressing is more likely to change contours as the sand is purposely left on the greens.  

But we know that topdressing has a negligible effect on putting surface contours

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:22:03 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 12:26:01 PM »
Pat,

In all of your sand splash rantings you continue to cite examples from courses where lots of people don't play.

Would you identify those courses that I play, where "lots of people don't play" ?
 

Get out into the public sector, or even the year round privates, and you'll start to understand issues related to sand splash.

Would you cite some year round privates that would allow me to "understand issues related to sand splash" versus the year round privates that I play ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »
Sand splash from bunkers can be major.

An example; I am currently working at Hardelot (Tom Simpson 1930), where we found at one greenside bunker that sandsplah was almost 50cm (20 inches)!

Frank,

I don't think you understand the issue.
It's not about how much sand was displaced from the bunker, it's about the build-up or elevation change to the putting surface directly attributable to sand splash.


We could determine that because we could see the old topsoil layer under all the splashed sand.

How could you see the old topsoil layer under all of the splashed sand if the putting surface was elevated 20 inches as you claim.

Matt previously cited core samples that revealed no such layer.


So that is 50 cm in 80 years (more like 70 if you exclude the war) so that comes down to 0.7 cm (0.3 inch) per year.

Perhaps you should reread the opening post.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2012, 12:34:08 PM »

To my eye, nearly every green at Pebble Beach GL has been significantly altered by sand splash (e.g. historical photos show the 17th green was not always blind).

How do you know that the blind nature of the 17th green is solely attributable to sand splash ?


This makes sense considering their small surface area, the close proximity of the bunkers, and the high traffic.

It only makes sense if you're predisposed to that conclusion.
To automatically rule out any and all other factors is hardly a scientific approach.


I suspect the greens would have been "desplashed" at some (or several) points in time if closing the course to restore the greens would not involve such a stout financial hit.

How do you reconcile your theory with the contradicting factual evidence that Matt Neff presented ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 12:42:41 PM »

Like Frank at Hardelot, we've discovered MAJOR sand splash build-up at the Victoria (B.C.) Golf Club - in some spots close to 2-3 feet at greenside bunkers.

Jeff, are you stating that portions of the putting surface have been elevated by 2 to 3 feet ?


At Victoria, this build-up isn't only from sand shots but constant wind blowing sand out of the bunkers as well.

That's a completely different issue.
One only has to study Oblique Dunes to understand the impact that the winds can have.


Similar to Hardelot, you can easily see the old topsoil elevation from the 1920s or before (VGC was established in 1893) and 2-3 feet of sand piled on top of that elevation once the grass and sand are removed.

What do the core samples from the putting surface, both near and distant from the bunkers reveal


It's quite amazing to see; and, in most cases at Victoria, we've attempted to preserve the evolved elevations of many of the greenside bunkers, because these features have added a lot of character to certain holes.

On a windy site on the Salish Sea, I don't know how you can quantify the difference between "sand splash" from golfers and "sand blow" from Mother Nature.


Mark Chaplin

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 01:08:34 PM »
Pat - this time you really have given me a lovely belly laugh. A professional GCA has given you an example of something on a course where he has been carrying out renovations and you start off with "I don't think you understand the issue" what I really think you mean is "feck a professional GCA cites an example at a course I've never heard of so the only thing I can do is attack him" come on my old chum accept you maybe wrong on this point and there ARE examples of elevation being altered by sand blow. Your credibility amongst the UK barristers, baristas and bankers will rise immeasurably.

As for the original question sand tends to drain well, so no it wouldn't affect the drainage.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 01:12:31 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 01:26:37 PM »
Pat - this time you really have given me a lovely belly laugh. A professional GCA has given you an example of something on a course where he has been carrying out renovations and you start off with "I don't think you understand the issue" what I really think you mean is "feck a professional GCA cites an example at a course I've never heard of so the only thing I can do is attack him" come on my old chum accept you maybe wrong on this point and there ARE examples of elevation being altered by sand blow. Your credibility amongst the UK barristers, baristas and bankers will rise immeasurably.

Let's let Frank answer the question and address the issue/s before you chime in with your Kreskin like wisdom.


As for the original question sand tends to drain well, so no it wouldn't affect the drainage.

It's apparent that don't understand the issue, but, that doesn't surprise me.

According to you, sand based greens don't puddle, they drain so well that surface drainage and/or runoff is irrelevant.
Intereting theory, have you offered it to any architects or superintendents ?


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 02:06:30 PM »
Pat,
Topdressing might be offsetting the drainage problem.  

Depth of a greenside bunker must also play a part. How much sand could ever get splashed out of PVGC's 10th?  :)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 02:12:45 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JESII

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 02:42:12 PM »
Pat,

I've read your opening poast a couple times now and think it's probably your least coherent ever.

But, I'll engage anyway.

You answered your own question about #10 at PV..."Alex, have you ever been in or seen, in person, the DA bunker on # 10 ?
It's doubtful that three grains of sand in a week escaped the deep, ice cone shaped bunker."

So now to the concept of sand splash. At Huntingdon Valley I'll bet sand splash has effected the green contours of 8 or 9 holes by 6 inches or more. The evidence has been seen with core samples of a few of them.

At Pine Valley? Not sure, but maybe the right edge of the 5th green which slopes to the center unlike the rest of the green. Same with the front left of #6?

As to drainage...I can't think of any spalsh areas that actually create a pool. At HVCC the water still has plenty of places to flow.

I'm perplexed at your confusion...

Mark Chaplin

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 05:37:28 PM »
Pat I only play on sandy greens that hold water for a very short time and never played with Ben Hogan and Gene Sarazen at some club for the Rockerfellas so what do I know  :-*
Cave Nil Vino

Alex Lagowitz

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 12:27:34 AM »
Pat,

It is very well possible that at one time, the effect you describe happened at PV 10,

I can assure you that it didn't.


however, the bunker may have been modified previous to the Walker Cup. 

Modified in what way ?
Do you have any evidence that it was modified or is this just a wild guess ?

I can only speak to 1964 regarding my experience regarding the bunker.
The Walker Cup was in 1985


Not majorly, but perhaps they noticed a little bit of build up and fixed it, maybe even without documentation by the super.

Alex, have you ever been in or seen, in person, the DA bunker on # 10 ?
It's doubtful that three grains of sand in a week escaped the deep, ice cone shaped bunker.


Another theory is that PV has a steller maintenance crew,

Given the configuration of the bunker, that's a wild, wild theory, one borne more out of of wishful thinking than actual experience.


thus sand splash from greens is unlikely to remain in following days.

Are you suggesting that they vacuum their putting surfaces every night ? ;D


There would need to be serious neglect for there to be any negligible differences in contouring. 
Top dressing is more likely to change contours as the sand is purposely left on the greens. 

But we know that topdressing has a negligible effect on putting surface contours




To answer your question in a whole rather than parts, no I have not seen PV and yes, all of my proposals are educated guesses.
When you posted the topic, I saw an opportunity to respond with mere "food for thought", not questioning your knowledge of PV or my lack of.

In regards to my first theory, no I do not have evidence that any changes were made to the 10th DA, but perhaps that in itself is evidence.  How can you be sure that the super never did any work on that bunker undocumented?

Secondly, in response to your quote: "It's doubtful that three grains of sand in a week escaped the deep, ice cone shaped bunker":
Have you answered your own question?  You claim that sand rarely escapes the bunker, so that would mean sand would not build up on the green.

Thirdly, in comparison to many "lower" class courses you would expect more sand build up because:
- likely more play on course which means more shots out of a given bunker
- worse maintenance crews - PV doesn't vacuum their greens, but they certainly do not leave clumps of visible sand and/or sand footprints on green
- sand walkers - more people are likely to not remove sand from shoes before entering green, where the most sand is deposited directly outside the bunker upon first step.  At PV hole 10, I presume the bunker is too steep to walk straight up the lip and out the top of the bunker.

A combination of these factors, with the addition of your probably "bunker shape theory" is the likely cause of the lack of sand buildup around the 10th at Pine Valley.

Lastly, in response to "But we know that topdressing has a negligible effect on putting surface contours":
I highly disagree.  Improper top dressing has had noticeable affects on putting contours.

From an earlier Tom Doak post:

Do the green contours change in the process?  Yes, if it's sloppily done.  Plus, on hillier sites with elevated greens, there seems to be extra topdressing at the fronts of the greens which makes the approaches very steep and wrecks the ability to play low shots into the front hole locations.  I saw a lot of that at Cypress Point the last time I made a tour of it.

How much can things change?  Well, to me the classic example is Yeamans Hall.  In the 1930's, they reduced the size of the greens to save $$ on the maintenance budget, but because the greens were common bermudagrass and quite slow, they topdressed heavily to give it some speed.  By the time I first saw it, the smaller area of the new greens had been built up twelve to fourteen inches from original grade ... it was like a mushroom was growing out of the original green.  There was no hint of the ridges and swales which were on Raynor's plan of the greens and which presumably had been buried underneath all the topdressing.  When we rebuilt those greens, we took the sand and spread it out over the entire pad for the original greens, but we had to look back to the plans to get a sense of what sort of contours to restore.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 12:29:27 AM by Alex Lagowitz »

Frank Pont

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 04:52:58 AM »
Sand splash from bunkers can be major.

An example; I am currently working at Hardelot (Tom Simpson 1930), where we found at one greenside bunker that sandsplah was almost 50cm (20 inches)!

Frank,

I don't think you understand the issue.
It's not about how much sand was displaced from the bunker, it's about the build-up or elevation change to the putting surface directly attributable to sand splash.


We could determine that because we could see the old topsoil layer under all the splashed sand.

How could you see the old topsoil layer under all of the splashed sand if the putting surface was elevated 20 inches as you claim.

Matt previously cited core samples that revealed no such layer.


So that is 50 cm in 80 years (more like 70 if you exclude the war) so that comes down to 0.7 cm (0.3 inch) per year.

Perhaps you should reread the opening post.


Pat,

thanks for your reply, let me first explain what we found at Hardelot better, and second pursue the thought if it makes a difference if the green slopes away or towards the bunker.

Hardelot.  The bunker I am talking about is a deep green bunker, defending the right side of the green of the 4th hole. It gets a lot of traffic. We are currently restoring all the bunkers on the course back to their more original Simpson shapes, they had dumbed down significantly over time. As part of this process this bunker was excavated to return it to its original, larger, size. The face of the bunker was so unstable that we had to dig deeper to create a revet wall that will give the backside of the sand face stability in the future. During this work we went roughly 3-4 feet deep, and it was here that we found an original layer of top soil that was 20 inches below the current top of the face of the bunker. I will make a picture of this cross-section when I'm at Hardelot this week, it is quite clear.  Of course the sand splash does not only raise the lip of the bunker. Most of the sand lands in the face or just on or over the top of the face, but there will be san that flies further, be it less the farther away one gets from the bunker. Therefore the green no doubt has also been raised, and although I haven't taken any core samples in this area, I would guess this to stretch for about 7-10 feet behind the bunker.

Sope of the green versus the bunker. This is something that could be very interesting. All the bunkers I know which have had significant sand splash build up, including the one in Hardelot, have greens that run away from the bunker or are flattish. I DO NOT know any bunker where the green slopes towards the bunker where there has been an equivalent amount of sand splash build up. Maybe the fact that surface water would run the sand back into the bunker instead of away from it has to do with this, but that would assume that the sand gets transported by surface water? Very interested in other peoples experiences in this area?

Grant Saunders

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 03:09:59 PM »
Much like the elusive Loch Ness monster, there have been numerous sightings of sand splash yet no solid photographic evidence to silence the skeptics.

Note the elevation that etends from the bunker into the green.







Hopefully this is sufficient to illustrate the point.

Awaiting the green ink....

Mark Chaplin

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 03:54:35 PM »
game, set and match
Cave Nil Vino

Steve Okula

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 04:46:08 PM »
thus sand splash from greens is unlikely to remain in following days.

Are you suggesting that they vacuum their putting surfaces every night ? ;D



Not vacuumed, but certainly loose sand is blown off the putting surfaces and greens surrounds on a daily basis.
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the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 04:59:02 PM »
My home course, Pawleys Plantation, is a great example of the effect of this phenomenon on/around nearly every putting surface. Not only has it caused little exterior bumps on the edges of greens to become more pronounced, this in turn has caused edges of the greens around these spots to recede, making the greens smaller and more amoeba-shaped. The course has undergone no other significant changes in recent years. The slope and rating were redone this year and the tips Rating/Slope went from 74.5/142 to 75.7/148. So at least at my course, the effect of sand-splash is very tangible.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 09:34:34 PM »
thus sand splash from greens is unlikely to remain in following days.

Are you suggesting that they vacuum their putting surfaces every night ? ;D



Not vacuumed, but certainly loose sand is blown off the putting surfaces and greens surrounds on a daily basis.

Steve,

How is it blown off the putting surfaces and green surrounds on a daily basis ?

I stay overnight at PV and am up very early and have never seen that practice.

Could you detail how they do it, or are you just making an unsubstantiated claim without any first hand information ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: If sand splash elevates the perimeter of a green, why isn't
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 09:41:58 PM »

game, set and match

Mark,

As I stated earlier, you clearly don't get it and apparently you have company in Grant.

Please go back and read the initial post and please pay special attention to the first sentence and focus on the word, "GREEN"

I wouldn't have believed that anyone could be so obtuse, but, perhaps I'm mistaken. (doubtful)


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