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Bob_Huntley

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Histrorical Scotland
« on: December 01, 2012, 05:10:31 PM »

Martin Bonnar gave me this piece of advice. If any one has three thousand signatures they might want to go to Historical Scotland's web site. Once there, go down to Gardens and Designed Landscapes; The Old Course is one of the protected sites.

Bob

Jim Colton

Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 07:26:14 PM »
Bob,

 It doesn't look like the agency has the same kind of authority over Gardens listed in the inventory as they would for historical buildings. From their website:

"Our statutory involvement is limited to developments that require planning permission. Under the Town and Country Planning (Development Management Procedure) (Scotland) Regulations 2008, planning authorities are required to consult Historic Scotland on development proposals considered to affect an Inventory Garden or Designed Landscape.

This means that all public enquiries about development proposals that may affect an Inventory site should be directed to the relevant Local Authority. The Local authority will then consult us on our view of the level of impact of the proposed development. Our comments will be a consideration in their determination of the case, however it is important to note that our advice in these cases is not binding, and the Local Authority is free to determine each case without further reference to us."

David_Tepper

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Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2012, 07:38:48 PM »
Can someone link a web address?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 07:56:22 PM »
I stumbled onto this new website called Gaggle or Google or something, typed in "historic scotland" and there it was...what an odd coincidence.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
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~Maybe some more!!

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 08:07:04 PM »
Here's the link to the entry for TOC:

http://data.historic-scotland.gov.uk/pls/htmldb/f?p=2400:15:0::::GARDEN:GDL00344

I do wonder if it's worth asking Fife Council if they had any contact from the 'developers'...wish I still worked in the Parks dept there!

F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Sean Walsh

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Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2012, 08:23:54 PM »
FBD,

I take it your local MP is different to the one on the Links Trust Committee?

James Boon

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Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 07:49:51 AM »
Looking at the "listing" or the various reason for St Andrews Links to be given this status, it all appears to be about the history of the site as a whole, including the other courses, and how it has been used for golf by the public over the centuries. It also refers to its setting, with the holes being very much part of the town.

It doesn't however mention anything along the lines of "excellent and original examples of strategic golf holes" or "notable for its fine examples of bunker placement and styling " or "the 17th and its road hole bunker are particularly fine examples of golf holes".  However, a listed or protected building may have within its listing such phrases as "fine and rare example of medieval stonework" or "excellent example of Georgian windows" or "a fine example of early English modernism" and its these specific descriptions that help to make it clear what is to be protected and to help inform any future adjustments.

Therefore, the way I'm reading it is that as long as the links as a whole remains as such, I can't see Historic Scotland being too concerned?

Perhaps it's only us GCA geeks who are so concerned with the actual architectural content of the old course and unless the golf course architecture itself can be listed, as discussed on the current thread started by Tom Doak, then such adjustments aren't going to be an issue for the wider public and golfing public as a whole?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Niall C

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Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2012, 09:59:29 AM »
I think I'm right in saying that Historic Scotland, or Hysterical Scotland as some property professionals are prone to calling them, would only get involved here as a consultee in the event of the work requiring planning permission. If planning permission were required the Links Trust presumably would submit the planning application to Fife Council as planning authority in this instance, who would then refer to statutory consultees possibly including Historic Scotland. Even if Historic Scotland were against the work, that doesn't necessarily mean planning permission would be refused in the same way SNH views, who were a consultee on Trumps application and objected to the proposals, were ignored at Balmedie.

Niall

James Boon

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Re: Histrorical Scotland
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 10:06:46 AM »
Niall,

I know there are subtle differences between these things in England and Scotland, but down here if something is Listed, we would generally need Listed Building Consent regardless of whether something needed planning consent or not? As far as you are aware, is that not the case in Scotland?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

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