[Joe_Tucholski]

I spent my Thanksgiving golfing with my dad and another GCAer in "The Home of American Golf."  Pinehurst, as everyone knows, is the site of one of an often lauded restoration/renovation.  That being said there were a number of people who were against the proposed restorations/renovations.  I've also read some members felt betrayed when they found out changes to the greens were occurring.  Apparently the original plans were to leave the greens untouched.  I’ve read circumstances dictated changing from one strain of bent to another which then provided justification for softening a few greens.  One seemingly reasonable argument utilized in justification for the softening was the combination of aeration and top dressing amplified salient features of the greens.  Therefore the softening was simply a restoration, although I've read various opinions that support this hypothesis (Dunlop White has some good articles) and others that refute this hypothesis.

When I returned to the discussion group there were, and are, many threads of outrage targeted at changes to "The Home of Golf."  Some of the modifications are more contentious than others.  Specifically the changes to the Eden green seem to be the most disturbing to the greatest number.  The provided justification for the changes seems to be hole locations have been lost due to increases in green speed.  Interestingly Scott Macpherson is the only person I noticed who mentioned topdressing as a potential justification for the loss of usable hole locations.

So...is it possible the loss of usable hole locations is, at least partially, due to aeration and top dressing amplifying the slopes through time (top dressing was started by Old Tom Morris on the Old Course right)?

If your answer to the above question is no, do you believe the justification is a legitimate justification at other courses?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I think it's improbable.

I've played the 13th at NGLA exponentially more times than I have the 11th at TOC, so I'm far more familiar with it.

It's true that higher Stimp speeds have rendered many hole locations obsolete.
The back of the 13th green only has a few hole locations when Stimps are 11 and higher.
I would assume the 11th has the same issues.

The problem I have is that when you flatten greens to accommodate higher Stimp speeds you reduce/eliminate the character from those greens.
As Stimps increase greens have to be flattened more, leading to benign if not mundane putting surfaces.

But greens shouldn't be looked at solely in the context of putting.

The green's impact on approach and recovery shots can't be ignored.

When you begin to flatten greens to accommodate higher putting speeds you diminish the inherent challenge of the approach and recovery because the character and inate defense presented by slope and/or contour has been removed, hence the damage to the architectural integrity is harmed exponentially.

This in turn places more focus on putting and diminishes the importance of the approach and recovery.

As you flatten more and more greens, squeezing the distinctive quality and character out of them, they all begin to look alike.

If I wanted to engage in a competition where every field of play looks and plays the same, I'd go back to  tennis, bowling and basketball,

Golf is unique, each hole and each course has it's own distinctive flavor.
Why dull that flavor  ?  Why alter that flavor until the distinction is no longer discernible ?

End of rant 

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joe,
I, too, have read quite a bit about topdressing changing greens over time. While I do not know about top dressing 50 years ago, in the 20 years I've been around golf maintenance, I don't see top dressing as big a factor in changing greens and contours as others do.

1. Ever since I was taught to top dress, top dressed under direction of others, and top dressed my own greens as a supt, I have always top dressed the collars as well as the greens. The sand never stops right at the edge of the greens. In fact, for the last ten years (since the larger spinner type machines came out) we have always top dressed collars and approaches as well as greens. So, if the green were to rise, so would the areas around the greens. I don't think I'm alone in this practice although some high end course do top dress with walk behind spreaders and they are more precise, but apply much less material.
 
2. Contours- sand does not migrate uphill. If anything, it is carried by water to the lower spots. Usually when you have a green that is a bit too abrupt for low mowing heights, one of the things you do to smooth out is top dress. I don't see top dressing as a culprit for making contour more severe.

3. One issue that is never talked about is how grass itself will slowly raise in height. When you see old courses with sprinkler heads that are low and need to be raised, its not because the heads settled. Fine cut turf creates thatch that causes the grass surface to rise. If you don't deal with that you get puffy grass that easily scalps when mowed. Walk on an old St Augistine lawn and you see exactly what I mean. We combat that process with aerifcation, vertical mowing, and dilution of the thatch layer with sand; top dressing. Aggressive grasses like bent and bermuda will slowly rise over time. I never hear this mentioned when we talk about top dressing changing green elevations over time, but it is a factor.

[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick - I think the problem on 11 TOC is only 15% of the green is pinable at 10.5, I do not believe they are looking to make the greens quicker.

The sprinkler heads at Chicago Golf are all at least 2" deeper than they "should be", we were told this is due to top dressing over the years.

[Steve Okula]

I would be very surprised if the green speeds at the Old Course ever went past 10', never mind 11', even for the Open, for the simple reason that any amount of wind would render the greens unplayable.

[Jeff Blume]

Joe,

We did a restoration at the Woodlands Tournament Course this summer that addressed this very issue.  Depending on the type of turf on the putting surfaces (determining the extent and frequency of topdressing) regular topdressing can impact green contours.  In the case of the Woodlands, the greens were rebuilt to USGA specifications in 1996.  We verified  by interviewing the people involved in 1996 that the orginial mix depth was the prescribed 12 inches.  In 16 years some of the mix depths had increased to 16 or 17 inches resulting in a loss of perimeter hole locations (this was also due to 419 Tifway intrusion as well).  Our experience was that topdressing had expanded distinct features in the greens through the sand migrating to the lower elevation areas as Don suggested.  We re-established the features and extended the putting surfaces back out to their original locations, which in turn allows for hole locations in closer proximity to the greenside hazards.

These greens were Champion Bermuda grass so they required extensive topdressing.  I do not know how these practices would impact the cool season turf at the Old Course, but it is not out of the realm of possibilities that it does have some influence.

[Sean Walsh]

Jeff,

By you argument this would have had an effect to reduce the slope on 11 not increase it, no?

My submission would be this argument is therefore totally irrelevant to to the work the 11 is currently undergoing.

I have also played the 11 th to a left pin in significant wind, although outside a time approaching tournament green speeds. For instance playing partners took driver and 3 wood. I on other hand hit a 3 iron 5 feet off the ground. It ran up the slope and then rolled back down with the slope and wind. Had no problem maintaining it's hold on the green. It's not the green, it's how it is maintained for tournament play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - I think the problem on 11 TOC is only 15% of the green is pinable at 10.5, I do not believe they are looking to make the greens quicker.
I understand that, but not all areas of putting surfaces were intended to be cupable

The sprinkler heads at Chicago Golf are all at least 2" deeper than they "should be", we were told this is due to top dressing over the years.

That  the surface has been elevated over the years or whether the heads have sunk or a combination of both is irrelevant.

The relevant issue is:  did the top dressing change the contours and/or slope.
I'm with Don in that, based on my observations, it hasn't.

Top dressing is applied universally, or evenly/equally and last I heard gravity applies equally as does rainfall on a putting surface
Irrigation might be applied unequal but I'd imagine a super would correct that in short notice[.

Hence I've never observed contours or slope that has substantively changed due to top dressing over the years, have you ?/color]

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Unfortunatly I've seen changes in a relative short time period.

This depends very much on the green form. greenkeeping practices and grass types.

Changes to large even green surfaces, will not be noticible as the top dressing will tend to be evenly spread.

On more pronounced movements of the green surface, the dragging process, tends to pull the top dressing off the humps and leave it in the hollows.
After many top dressings any subtle movements of the green surface will be smoothed out.

The fast growing modern Penn Grasses require more frequent aerating to combat thatch, which are usually followed up by top dressing.
In a fast growing climate the time intervals between applications can be quite close.
If the green keeper is too generous with the top dressing application, then the greens surface will increase in height.

I've seen greens which have increased 1 inch over 5 seasons.

Having said that, a links green such as the 11th on the Old Course, which has a predomininantly Fescue Green, has minimal thatch , and thus requires far less top dressing applications.

[David_Tepper]

What about sand being thrown on to greens from shots played out of bunkers? Can't that effect green contours as well? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

What about sand being thrown on to greens from shots played out of bunkers? Can't that effect green contours as well? 

I've heard some say that "sand splash" can have an influence, but I've never seen any evidence of it.

Some say that the 13th green at Merion had the front portion of the putting surface elevated by sand splash.

Gravity, nightly irrigation, daily mowing and rain tend to diminish the impact of sand splash and top dressing

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

Topdressing doesn't affect the contours within the green so much; where it has a bigger effect is around the greens on parkland courses, because they don't topdress the approaches or the surrounds nearly as much, so the greens slowly raise up over time and shed balls more easily.  For example, it's way easier to putt off the front of some greens at Cypress Point than it once was, because they're higher.

I don't think topdressing has had much effect on the greens at St. Andrews, because they topdress everything -- way out into the approaches and all around the sides of the greens -- similar to what's done at Bandon Dunes.  The greens at Pacific Dunes have changed very little over 13 years despite heavy topdressing.  The only changes in the surface are where some bunker sand has blown onto the greens repeatedly over time, such as the right side of the 14th, and the revetted bunkers at St. Andrews minimize that effect.

"Sand splash" can be a big problem at courses which receive a lot of play, despite Mr. Mucci's lack of experience.  Those sexy flashed bunkers at Riviera were much much flatter in the 1950's, but with 60,000 rounds of play and more each year, they've evolved into the forms of today, with a bigger lip and a downslope to the green on the back of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

Out of the thousands of courses you've seen, how many had greens that were substantively altered by "sand splash" ?

[Jeff Blume]

Sean,

I think John hit the nail on the head above as to what took place at the Woodlands.  With regard to #11 specifically (why is it always #11 ), the "buried elephant" in the middle of the green had increased in size significantly.  It exapanded from being in the middle of the green to impacting the slopes on the perimeter.  This resulted in a loss of hole locations left and right, and the only suitable cup settings for tournament play were on the front left and right and at the back of the green.  When we opened up the green what we found was a mix depth of 12" on the top of the mound, but it got progressively thicker (15", 16" and 17") as you got to the lower elevations.

Constant slopes on the greens were not impacted as much, but prominent features definitely were increased in size.  Others may have had different experiences, but this was the real world case at the Woodlands.

[David_Tepper]

Tom D. -

Thanks for your comments about "sand splash." I do think that portions of greens on courses that get a lot of play receive far more sand coming out of bunkers than they do from being top-dressed a couple of times a year.

Hopefully, we will hear from some greenskeepers on this issue.

DT 

[Jason Goss]

This a shot of our practice bunker after only four years since last rebuild.  I think this is enough evidence of sand splash changing elevations.  The grade on the left is the original grade. The area to the right of the picture that has the 10+" of build up of sand is what we were removing.  The cool thing about this kind of renovation is that the original grade is still there due to the difference in soil type.  It is an easy fix in our case.  Not so easy at a place built on links land where the bunker sand and the soil are one in the same.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90627775@N02/8231804029/

Granted this is a practice bunker that gets LOTS of use, but the buildup came in only four years.  How much build up do you think has happened at TOC in its long history?

[Mark Chaplin]

Unless you take a laser out each day I cannot see how the naked eye could tell a couple of inch change of elevation in a 10000sq foot green.

[Matt Neff]

Agree with the others on top dressing not significantly changing contours but I think over time sand splash could in a scenario where coring practices have been sub optimal especially if the bunkers are shallow and close to the putting surface.  Bunker faces can be dramitically altered in a relatively short period of time which obviously can alter the grade/contouring of the green surrond and tie-ins.  Having scraped 16+ inches of bunker sand off (back down to original grade) of a chipping green bunker face and 8-10 off a few "popular" bunkers on the course a few years ago and seeing the bulid-up since has been amazing.  But as far as build-up on the green, I would think that in addition to daily mowing,  standard coring practices would mitigate any substantial build-up.  In my experience, I have yet to see a core pulled from a green that has a defined layer of bunker sand.


Matt Neff
Assistant Golf Course Superintendent
Wedgewood G&CC
Powell, OH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Unless you take a laser out each day I cannot see how the naked eye could tell a couple of inch change of elevation in a 10000sq foot green.

Mark, that's because you don't understand the process.

When you have children, you don't notice the daily changes, but, a relative who hasn't seen them in a year is surprised by how much they've changed since they last saw them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

But as far as build-up on the green, I would think that in addition to daily mowing,  standard coring practices would mitigate any substantial build-up. 

In my experience, I have yet to see a core pulled from a green that has a defined layer of bunker sand.

Matt,

That's probably the defining test with regard to the absence of and/or lack of influence of sand splash build up.

If topdressing, mostly with sand, doesn't influence green contours/slope, why would sand splash ?
And, I understand the impact on "concentrated" areas.

But, most bunkers are offset from the putting surface and below the putting surface, diminishing the amount of sand extracted from the bunker and redistributed to the green.



Matt Neff
Assistant Golf Course Superintendent
Wedgewood G&CC
Powell, OH

[Greg Cameron]

Here in Vancouver,land of the 6 month drizzle,I have noticed a slight puddling in heavier rain events in the area where the greens surface drainage meets the collar/approach cut.The rain stops and the puddle goes away(percolates)but I have wondered if this seemingly slight build up in the apron was a function of topdressing?I see it at different courses on different greens so I dont believe it is a simple case of settlement in the subgrade.My imagination?

[Tom_Doak]

Granted this is a practice bunker that gets LOTS of use, but the buildup came in only four years.  How much build up do you think has happened at TOC in its long history?

Jason:

Those revetted bunkers at St. Andrews are rebuilt every 2-5 years, and they try to go back down to original grade every time they rebuild them.  But it's tough to tell where the grade used to be when it's sand on sand, so the bunkers change a little bit from one rebuild to the next.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Here in Vancouver,land of the 6 month drizzle,I have noticed a slight puddling in heavier rain events in the area where the greens surface drainage meets the collar/approach cut.The rain stops and the puddle goes away(percolates)but I have wondered if this seemingly slight build up in the apron was a function of topdressing?I see it at different courses on different greens so I dont believe it is a simple case of settlement in the subgrade.My imagination?

Greg,

You're referring to what's often called a "collar dam". These dams are created over time as topdress sand is dragged and spun into the putting surface displacing too much sand around the perimeter of the greens. It's that dam of sand that's holding the water you see, most likely.

We're working on removal of some pretty signifcant collar dams at Kelowna G&CC right now. You'd probably be amazed at how much sand can build-up. An incredible amount of topdress sand was removed from the front of the 7th green at Kelowna earlier this year - something like 5-6 Cushman loads, if my memory serves correct. And, the 7th is one of the new greens at Kelowna, built during the 1980s I think. 

We'll be doing the same at Kelowna's 10th and 16th greens in the new year. And I expect even more material to be removed from these older greens.

[Bradley Anderson]

I have a hard time believing that topdressing on those huge greens would have any serious effect on the putting contours. Small greens will become turtle backed over time but not large greens.

They have scheduled the event during the rainest time of their year - mid July. The rainfall in June is 50% less on average than the rain in July. So move the the date back 4 weeks or so and leave the greens alone.

The scoring at St. Andrews will not be determined by speed but by firmness.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

Out of the thousands of courses you've seen, how many had greens that were substantively altered by "sand splash" ?

Patrick, I think it can have a big effect especially on drainage routes.

In the last few years we have seen an increase in ice damage to Poa annua greens in the winter because of water turning to ice on the green before it can drain off during mid-winter thawing. I think that originally those areas drained off much faster and thats one of the reasons why ice damage has gotten worse over time.

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