1955 Open Champion Peter Thomson on Old Course Alterations

[Mike_Clayton]

The five-time winner of the British Open, Peter Thomson, has expressed his outrage at proposed changes to the Old Course at St Andrews, saying they amount to the destruction of a golfing treasure.

Speaking to BackPageLead from China, Thomson said when he first read the news from Scotland about the renovations, which include the widening of the famous Road Hole bunker and alterations to eight other holes, he was almost struck dumb.

''Have the architects of golf gone mad? I can scarcely believe what I read,'' Thomson said.

''The Old Course is a Golf Treasure that has proved itself to be the ultimate Championship venue. It satisfies in every way the aspirations of champion players and high handicappers. It beggars belief that someone in authority should want to destroy it.

''Like a bad dream, I am hoping it will go away - together with those who would propose the slightest change. Such arrogance deserves no support.''

[Paul_Turner]

Why is it that only Yanks, Aussie's, Canadians, South African's, Dutch etc seem to care?  The silence from GB&I and St Andrews in particular, is deafening. 

Perhaps it's true...most Brits would prefer a round at Myrtle Beach.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jack Nicklaus did a convincing job defending the work this morning during an interview on the Golf Channel.  He said the 11th green has had to much slope for the last 400 years. He also cited more changes than I can mention since he first played the course. Nicklaus may not know more about TOC and golf architecture than you but he sure does know more than me. Isn't there a chance that somewhere between him and you the truth might just lie?

[Paul_Turner]

Ian Poulter:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/poulter-blasts-proposed-changes-to-old-course-at-st-andrews/

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

Perhaps you could ask Peter Thomson if there was a vote on this by the members of the R&A? I do know I never received a ballot.

As an aside, did you ever play TOC in a competitive event and did you find it easy?

Bob

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jack Nicklaus did a convincing job defending the work this morning during an interview on the Golf Channel.  He said the 11th green has had to much slope for the last 400 years. He also cited more changes than I can mention since he first played the course. Nicklaus may not know more about TOC and golf architecture than you but he sure does know more than me. Isn't there a chance that somewhere between him and you the truth might just lie?

I'd follow up with Jack and ask, why is that so? Why has that 11th green at St. Andrews needed softening for the last 4oo years? Jack said that, but he's offered no explanation as to exactly why he thinks that... or just blurted that out.  

Jack?

[Tom_Doak]

I had a bad feeling about depending on Jack Nicklaus to say the right thing about golf architecture.

Nice to hear Mr. Thomson speak up though.

Bob Huntley:  No, there was no vote of R & A members at all.  Even the fellows on the Championship Committee weren't informed of the proposed works until last week.  A friend of mine who is a member heard a rumor two months ago via Hawtree's office and tried in vain to find out anything more, but none of the members he asked knew anything about it, including two committee men.

[Bob_Huntley]

I had a bad feeling about depending on Jack Nicklaus to say the right thing about golf architecture.

Nice to hear Mr. Thomson speak up though.

Bob Huntley:  No, there was no vote of R & A members at all.  Even the fellows on the Championship Committee weren't informed of the proposed works until last week.  A friend of mine who is a member heard a rumor two months ago via Hawtree's office and tried in vain to find out anything more, but none of the members he asked knew anything about it, including two committee men.

Tom,

Disgusting.

Bob

[Kevin_Reilly]

Jack Nicklaus did a convincing job defending the work this morning during an interview on the Golf Channel.  He said the 11th green has had to much slope for the last 400 years. He also cited more changes than I can mention since he first played the course. Nicklaus may not know more about TOC and golf architecture than you but he sure does know more than me. Isn't there a chance that somewhere between him and you the truth might just lie?

I heard that also this morning.  Though he wasn't "convincing" to me.  Note that some of the changes he listed were simply tee changes for the Open...not changes as (potentially) permanent as what is being done now. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Barney
Convincing via the tees.
Not The Eden green.
I think he hurt the case.
If it was good enough for 400 years, why is the 2015 pro golfer such a puss?
Cheers

[Tony_Muldoon]

Jack Nicklaus did a convincing job defending the work this morning during an interview on the Golf Channel.  He said the 11th green has had to much slope for the last 400 years. He also cited more changes than I can mention since he first played the course. Nicklaus may not know more about TOC and golf architecture than you but he sure does know more than me. Isn't there a chance that somewhere between him and you the truth might just lie?

John most posting on here actually agree with your point, that some changes to TOC might be in in order. What has got people riled is the high handed manner in which these changes have been made. The time to debate changes to the slope of a "400" year old green is not when the machinery is ripping it apart.  For further enlightenment on how this was done see the posts from Doak and Huntly below.  There is a lack of detail about what is being done which means that even Jack can’t be confident in saying all the work is a good idea.

Like others I'm surprised by the apathy of so many golfers to this, particularly those in GB&I and especially those in Scotland. You must be the only serious golfer I know of who has expressed no desire to play TOC.  There was a thread recently about must play courses.  I decided then that there really is only one “must play” in golf and to see it being physically altered on the whim of a select secret few is distressing. I want future visitors to revel in the glory of the course not to get distracted by any unnecessary  modern alterations. Part of the attraction of the place is the history and we should be very careful to tinker with that.  Tarnish the magic and you’ll never get it back.

[Mike_Clayton]

Bob

I played the 84,90 and 95 Opens on the Old Course. 84 I had no clue.90 I played decently for me -288 T45 - but it was perfect weather and the course was not difficult at all,Faldo was 19 under from memory. By 95 I was playing junk and missed the cut.

It was great fun though - and you take it all for granted at the time. Looking back they were pretty cool experiences.

[jeffwarne]

Barney
Convincing via the tees.
Not The Eden green.
I think he hurt the case.
If it was good enough for 400 years, why is the 2015 pro golfer such a puss?
Cheers

If you're trying to make the course "more challenging" for pros why take 50-60% out of the slope on 11?
If changes continue to homogonize the Old Course, how long is it before  someone points that out hitting over a Hotel to a green with a road flush against it is kind've stupid(or worse "unfair") and changes that?

[Adam Clayman]

Even worse is the signal it sends to the other Rota courses (and wannabees), and perhaps why so many professional regional archies are treading lightly. Trump implications linger in the subtext, too.

The timing of these changes, and the handling of the information, is a whole nuther kettle of fish. They could've tried to increase marginal revenue by announcing the changes, and giving people time, and a chance to rush over there, before they disfigured. At a premium, of course. But, obviously they knew there would be resistance and acted sneakily and quickly.

Wonder if Donald and Dawson are buds? Do you think Mr. Dawson has to remind his groups, not to cheat?

[Paul_Turner]

Was the 11th at St Andrews in Nicklaus's "Top 18 of Major Championship Golf"  I remember 12th at Lytham and Augusta made the list for the 3s.

[John Kavanaugh]

You must be the only serious golfer I know of who has expressed no desire to play TOC.  There was a thread recently about must play courses.  I decided then that there really is only one “must play” in golf and to see it being physically altered on the whim of a select secret few is distressing. I want future visitors to revel in the glory of the course not to get distracted by any unnecessary  modern alterations. Part of the attraction of the place is the history and we should be very careful to tinker with that.  Tarnish the magic and you’ll never get it back.

Tony,

My boycott of all things Scottish, which ended this year in tribute to my good friend Melvyn leaving this site, had nothing to do with my desire to play TOC.  I will tell you now that I do have zero interest in playing the course if at anytime during my visit it would include the bashing of this current work.  I can't imagine a more boring way to spend a day at the home of golf.

What I would like to know is how many people so passionate about these changes will continue to play the rube and pay huge sums of money to support the organizations they now bash.  While I no longer have an issue with Scotland or its people, who does?  How can the same people decrying theses changes show their face at the course again?

[Tony_Muldoon]

John I'm delighted to hear you've ended your boycott.  I agree for anyone travelling to St Andrews the changes should never be the story.


I have my own boycott, of Trumps new course.  I simply refuse to give him a penny of my money. However I do intend to go back to St Andrews even though I’m aware that part of my green fees (from all the courses there) will end up subsidising Dawson’s lunch and paying his mortgage.  I will do what I can to put pressure on to get the R&A to change its ways.  However the point is it’s not their course that I will be playing, they didn’t make it and they don’t own it.  It gives me comfort to think I doing what I can to help preserve what is special about the place. Maybe it’s naive or self serving that even though I’ve lunched in the R&A Clubhouse, I don’t have any feeling that it's their course.   I once persuaded my family to take our two week holiday there.  Even my non golfing wife and daughter came away with a belief that the course is a vital part of St Andrews in a way that places like North Berwick or Lahinch can’t match.  I feel strongly that those currently in power are misguided on the main issues and they should have more respect for something they have a custodial responsibility for.  I could boycott the courses but the R&A would pay as much attention to me as Donald Trump does.  And yes I’m pretty irate about what’s going on.

Does that make me a rube? OK.

[Martin Toal]

I have never played TOC (apart from one shot which was preceded by a shot on The New but hooked), and profess no great knowledge of the 11th, but it seems to me that if this green really was a well known issue over the 400 or more years of its existence, then we would have hard a great deal more about it up until now.

[Niall C]

Why is it that only Yanks, Aussie's, Canadians, South African's, Dutch etc seem to care?  The silence from GB&I and St Andrews in particular, is deafening. 

Perhaps it's true...most Brits would prefer a round at Myrtle Beach.

Paul

If you are referring to the denizens of this site then the few Scottish residents who come on here have indeed made their opinions known. Its just they don't all seem to agree with you although some do (FBD ?), and I may add that they aren't all Scottish. Maybe the lack of outrage emanating from St Andrews has something to do with the locals seeing the course for what it is, a constantly changing landscape which forms part of the town and provides pleasure to many, rather than some museum piece that's set in stone. Of course, as a weegie I'm probably not allowed a say.

BTW, good to see the the previously derided Peter Thomson being listened to 

Niall

ps on another thread Rich provides a link to an article re the changes made to the Road Hole bunker in 2002. From what I gather from the article, Mr Thomson seemed to have proposed the changes. Funny how peoples perspectives change over time. 

[Marty Bonnar]

Guys,
that's actually quite an interesting point. I think it is fair to say that most Brit/Scot golfers will be quite disinterested in this issue. Maybe it comes down to the fact that we 'live' with our local landscape heritage every day. A golf course compared to, say, Edinburgh Castle or Ben Nevis, just will never elicit the same kind of reaction from Jock Average that we see coming from our furrin friends.

I think maybe our wilder mountainous landscapes are given much more respect by the locals than our man-made or even our 'less' impressive coastal features cos people live with them every day as opposed to having to make a special trip to see them. I do keep harping on that visitors to Scotland, especially golfers, should spend more time seeing the other landscapes this country has to offer, as they are often WAY more spectacular than any, even great, dunescape. The mountains of Scotland are the ONLY true wilderness left in all of the UK. Would most Americans prefer to visit Yellowstone or Cypress Point? Yes, same here...

F.

[Jud_T]

Martin,

They may start caring when the tourist dollars dry up once the Old Course becomes just another doctored Championship slog.  Of course then it'll be too late to do anything about it...Just another reason to go to Bandon....

[Paul_Turner]

Niall

To me it seems much more like indifference rather than a philosophical difference i.e the difference between evolution and mutilation

See the old thread Rich resurrected from 2002 about some relatively minor changes to the Road bunker.  Of course there was the "knee jerk" and hysteria from us fanatics but also a strong reaction from the locals too

Not now apparently, there's just no reaction, positive or negative.  

Is The Old Course is as integral to the town as it once was? Too many tourists?  More competition from Kingsbarns etc?  Has the Old Girl lost her luster?