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David Davis

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Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« on: November 27, 2012, 02:46:26 PM »
I know some of you are interested in this kind of stuff, others perhaps to a lesser degree. I'm trying to document some of the challenges and decisions we are making and what the end result delivers. The weakest hole at our club from an architectural standpoint is the 7th hole. I've posted photos of this semi recently but will post again now so you can see the before and after. Basically we've made the changes that are allowed so far. These are not the complete changes that I would love to see as well as what the architect Martin Ebert has proposed. They are a great start. Making changes in The Netherlands is very challenging, if you remove trees you have to satisfy rules that require you to replant them someplace else (in the country). That is when and if you are allowed to remove them at all. The same goes for our local bushes called buck-thorns (duindoorns in Dutch).

Here is how the hole looked prior to yesterday when the prep work began.





This is how it looks now from similar angles:





This is the start of work where the new bunker, approx. where the white circle is will come into play. Of course this is being places to make people think about which club to choose off the tee if they try to cut the corner. So now they can either play out to the corner or go for the more aggressive shot.




Ok so the big question is, what does the peanut gallery (that's my kind and caring name for all of you, it's said with love) think?
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Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 03:28:43 PM »
David,

The tree removal looks great!  It now opens up the option of being bold off the tee to shorten the approach shot a bit.

Mark



PS.  I will actually be in the area in a couple weeks for work at a steel plant just north of you.  We should try to connect!

Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 03:38:13 PM »
Mark,

Where is just North? Are you bringing your clubs? Have time for a game? If so pm me and let me know.

David
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Andrew Hastie

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Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 03:41:24 PM »
David,
Good to see they are finally doing something. Only a few hundred trees to go!
Andrew

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 04:24:06 PM »
David, is this work under the guidance of Martin Ebert?.... One thing I'd say is be wary of leaving the tree line too straight / uniform...

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 04:55:50 PM »
Ally, yes it's a variation of Martin's suggestion to be fair. His suggestion is far better and much more aggressive in terms of tree removal but we are not allowed to do that. I think the tree line looks a little straiter than it actually is. Although I do know what you mean for sure. This hole has the potential to eventually become a great short par 4. There is some wonderful undulated natural dunes terrain in those trees:



and:

« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 04:57:23 PM by David Davis »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 02:01:23 AM »
Ally, yes it's a variation of Martin's suggestion to be fair. His suggestion is far better and much more aggressive in terms of tree removal but we are not allowed to do that. I think the tree line looks a little straiter than it actually is. Although I do know what you mean for sure. This hole has the potential to eventually become a great short par 4. There is some wonderful undulated natural dunes terrain in those trees:



and:



Martin's suggestion may have been much more aggressive, but probably not as aggressive as mine.

I thought that would be a really fine hole if you could take down every tree on the left for some distance back.  The green sets up beautifully from different angles but as of now you are not able to get any different angles unless you're looking between tree trunks.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 03:22:34 AM »
I would have tried the hole first without a bunker.  Not sure it is needed with such a severe penalty missing slightly left of the bunker line. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 03:36:11 AM »
David, I remember walking this hole with Tom and the greenscommittee of Noordwijk some years ago. The greens chair kept talking to Tom about all these little changes they were going to make here and there on the hole, while all the while Tom was only silently looking into the trees on the left. Great scene...

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 03:54:11 AM »
The hole we played in the Dutch Opens of the 80s and 90s may be for worst hole on any really good course in the world.
It was truly horrible. From memory if you hit the ball to where you could see it from the tee the hole was 6 iron 6 iron. It was that or fire up and over the trees to parts unknown.I have seen players looking in the trees left and right - for the same shot.

Obviously it is hard to pull out trees but there must be 100s on the left that need to go before it's a good hole.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 11:32:18 AM »
Keep those chain saws full of petrol and ready to go, David!

Monifieth (a fine and storied links course in Angus) had the same problem and a couple of years ago they started to get rid of the trees that infested the course.  When I played it last spring it was amazing after the first phase (hopefully) of tree removal, and as you highlight in some of your pictures, it is amazing what contours have come into light (and play) now that the trees are gone.  I'll be back there in a fewe months and can't wait to see what additional progress has been made.

Keep up the good work.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Neil White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 12:34:24 PM »
David,

I know it is hard to tell from the photos - but is the new bunker going to be visible from the tee?

Judging from what I can see it would appear the bunker is located past the inside apex of the dogleg - yes?

Does that land fall away from the tee as it appears in the photo?

Neil.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 12:58:01 PM »
David,

Agree with some of the comments that the bunker is overdone. It might have a role in the future if much more trees are cleared to the left.
But then I'm still not sure it would be very visible from the tee.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 01:37:29 PM »
Guys,

Excellent comments on the bunker (and the trees). I assure that we are all thinking along the same lines here. It is hard to tell but the bunker in our opinion serves a pretty good purpose in this case. There are many way to play this hole (would be even more if we could remove the trees to the left plus many more angles as Tom suggests). Firstly, Tom for your info Martin is 100% for removing every single tree on the course (as am I, as you all know). Then and only then could we get the maximum out of the beautiful links terrain that we are so lucky to have our course on. However, changes are as I've mentioned really tough to get through, tough to get environmental permits for. Way more difficult than the US and UK from my experience. We are in the process for years dealing with the government organizations etc. Since this is new for me - it's only my 2nd year as a member, I'm learning more than I would like to about red tape in NL and how all these organization and everyone else works against you here, even when you are greatly improving the land and bringing back the natural dunes that have completely been grown in. I just can't emphasize enough or explain in anything less than a book how complicated the smallest of changes are.

Martin Ebert has also said in the UK things like gorse and buckthorn can just be taken out in most cases, not here we have to replant it and get a permit to do so. Can you imagine, that's a step above a weed. Then there seems to be an endangered insect sort that is invisible to the naked eye every place you want to put your shovel. Don't laugh, it's true.

However, I digress, back to the bunker. The bunker is 200 meters (220 yds) from the tee. From the middle of the bunker it's 120m to the middle of the green. However, the bunker face is steep enough that it would be tough to pull that off. In the photos I showed we had just removed the trees and the stumps were still in the ground in the corner so we spent a fair bit of time today assessing the visibility of the bunker from the tee. We all agree it needs to be in view.

With the trees cut back like they are, higher hcp'ers that could not reach the corner to have a shot at the green at all now have the ability to player a shot other than a 20 meter chip to the corner. So they can now realistically reach the green in 3. Better players and longer players will now have to choose between hit a low iron off the tee and aiming for the fairway in the corner, hitting a hybrid/3 wood off the tee and coming up bunker high or just short or going for it with a driver. Carrying the bunker, a carry of 205 meters will reward them with a little larger landing area and a short approach. The bunker is being placed in the exact same place it would of been with the full plan, ie short par 4 with all the trees on the left gone. Eventually there will be another bunker further up on the left as well if this happens. We would want to encourage good players to go for the green but not without considerable risk/reward. The hole would really be a gem if/when we can remove all those trees.

Today we lowered the part of the area brining the bunker more into view but there are still two stumps that keep the left side a bit high which will be removed this week. We also removed a couple trees from the left of the women's tee which really opened up the tree line and made it look less straight (one of the things Ally mentioned above, which is why I suggested it won't be as straight as it looks.)

We also are placing a new back tee on 18 which will make it a tough finishing hole at about 391 meters. I took a couple photos of that to show you guys as well.

I notice on GCA that often we have photos of courses which are brilliant but I'm hoping you guys also appreciate the photos in process which I've not seen many of. I really enjoy sharing and discussion the changes as we are doing them. For me it's really actual so I hope you guys see it the same way.

Thanks for the comments.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 01:51:54 PM »
David,

I agree that the bunker would be a nice hazard as a centerline bunker - if 30 yards of width would be created on the left as Tom D. suggested.  As it stands, I think the bunker will stand out as unnecessary, perhaps even saving a hooked tee shot trying to turn the corner from it's rightful fate!

I've been fortunate enough to go round Kennemer once but never had the chance to play Noordwijkse, although I know it is a fantastic course and club.  Good luck with the changes!

Cheers


David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2012, 02:21:25 PM »
Thanks for the comment Will! I don't completely agree but that's ok, I do agree that the hole will never reach it's potential until all the trees have been removed on the left. We all agree on that so far, at least I've not heard anyone say differently except for members of our club that  might not like my idea (having grown up as an Oregonian lumberjack) of making toilet paper of all these trees. ;-) The bunker at this stage serves it's purpose there perfectly as those of you who come join me for a round will see.

Here are a few photos from today (a step further):

Bunker shaping almost complete.



Looking back up at the tee. Here you can see vaguely the stumps just to the right in the photo that still need to be dealt with which will lower that enhancing the view of the bunker from the tee.




Here is Martin Ebert, taking the bull by the horns and daring me to post this on GCA (I had his permission for the record). He didn't want any of you boys thinking he didn't get down and dirty with the rest of us. The bunker was a bit too perfectly round and smooth so he was undoing some of the work. Funny enough when we came back after lunch we had to do it again as the greenkeeping staff had re-perfected the roundness. Quite funny.


This is the new view from the tee - close up - after the two large trees to the left of the ladies tee were removed.


Here is the view from back at the mens tee. You can see the tree line appears less straight. Ok IMO. Plus there will be a couple more trees removed (not enough of course)


Here is something else. We are also moving the back tee on the 18th as mentioned. Tis first photo is from the back of the new tee box. It's hard to see but centerline fairway is where the pole is on the dune to the right of the current tee box. That dune will be shaped starting just after the open sand area to offer a partial view of the landing zone. Right side will still be partially out of view. Due to the dune in front of that which we are not allowed to touch or reshape. The new tee box will fit right into this natural slot right in front of me.


This is one more photos but looking back from the current back tee. You can see the placement of the new tee box just to the right side of the cart and you can see how there is a perfect natural slot for it.




Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2012, 03:26:41 PM »
David,

Sorry, but for me the bunker will only work visiually if and when more trees are removed left of it, now its just too close to the straight tree edge.

On the new backtee of 18, if I'm correct there already is quite a walk back from the 17th green to the current 18th tee. How much will the new green to tee walk be? Nice terrain though!

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Noordwijkse Changes - 7th hole
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2012, 06:31:18 PM »
Thanks for the comment Will! I don't completely agree but that's ok, I do agree that the hole will never reach it's potential until all the trees have been removed on the left. We all agree on that so far, at least I've not heard anyone say differently except for members of our club that  might not like my idea (having grown up as an Oregonian lumberjack) of making toilet paper of all these trees. ;-) The bunker at this stage serves it's purpose there perfectly as those of you who come join me for a round will see.

David,

I love your passion and vision and am excited that you are seeing your ideas at least partially carried out!  It is a stretch for me to judge anything by pics without ever having stood on that tee.  I wish I still worked in London and I could make arrangements for a round asap!  How did an Oregon boy find himself in Holland?  Very curious!

My wife and I are trying to make arrangements for a month in London during the summer months - I am a teacher - where we can take our now 19-month-old to expose her to Europe sooner rather than later.  If we can work it out, I'd love to hop over and get a round in!  I was treated SO WELL at Kennemer as a former PGA member that it remains one of the most unique and special golfing memories of my life - 27 holes in about 5:30 taking a cab to and fro!  Then...back to Amsterdam, one of my favorite cities in the world.

Cheers