Vail Vacation

« **on:** July 14, 2003, 02:39:42 AM »

Heading to Vail Village for 10 days beginning July 18 and while I have frequented the area many times during the Winter, this is the first time grass will be visible. SO, PLEASE, HELP!

A quick scan of the local courses doesn't reveal much and would love some insight. I just read a recent thread about the "Top 20 Mountain Courses" and didn't see any consensus about the Vail-area courses. While some loved the Sonnenalp course, others didn't ... same for the Vail and Beaver Creek courses. Will only get in two days of golf so I want to play the best ... (I will take the 8-year old boy to the par three course an afternoon or two.)

We are staying in the heart of Vail Village (Moutain Haus @ Vail) so the Vail course is a short stroll away. My internet scan showed two courses at Red Sky but I believe the Fazio course is off limits to foreign invaders nor reciprical with my club. There are several other courses - Eagle-Vail & a par three course in Eagle-Vail, Beaver Creek, the Cordilla courses, a 10-hole Pelz training "short course," Sonnenalp, and a few others.

I'd be willing to drive an hour or more if the course is highly touted.

I'll also have another day or two in Denver or Colorado Springs and would love to play some where I haven't played either ... I have already played the namesake courses at Copper, Keystone, and Breckenridge, Arrowhead and Cherry Hills in the Denver area, Walking Stick (?) in Pueblo, and the Broadmoor courses in Colorado Springs.

Any insight on Vail and Denver-area courses would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks ... SBJ the Flatlander.

« **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2003, 02:37:36 PM »

Your attention, please! Would a Mr. Doug Wright please go to the nearest courtesy phone and give this Flatlander the what-for?

Thank you.

« **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2003, 02:46:12 PM »

Dan,

In the immortal words of Vern Lundquist, "Maybe...Yes sir!" Gotta run now but will be back to SBJ later today.

Regards,

« **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:26:40 PM »

SBJ:

Go to Red Sky Ranch and see if you access the new Greg Norman course. I just played it earlier this month and although it's still maturing the overall turf conditions are quite good and the shotmaking requirements are among Greg's better efforts that I have seen.

If you're looking for something a bit more affordable -- you can try Glenwood Springs -- about 50 miles west of Vail and try to play Cotton Ranch or River Valley Ranch. If you head east of Vail and go to Silverthorne you can also play The Raven Club at Three Peaks which isn't bad.

Sad but true -- the mountain area will not yield anything that is world class but I'm sure Doug can comment further.

If you have time I'd recommend making a day trip over to Grand Junction and playing the combo of Redlands Mesa in the AM and heading south to Delta 45 minutes south to play Devil's Thumb. You'll certainly get more bang for the buck with these two than with many others in the region.

« **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:30:22 PM »

I remember playing the Eagle Vail course years ago, 1978 I think, and it was okay. A few holes went up into ski jump territory, culminating in a par 3 with maybe 100 foot drop shot. The holes out in the open at highway level were routed around and over a pretty strong creek. I recall reading a newspaper in the bus on the way back to the resort which had a review of Eagle Vail that started, "World War II veterans talk about Guadalcanal in the same hushed tones that golfers use to talk about Eagle Vail." I'll bet there are a whole lot more trees out in that area thas pretty wide open in 1978.

« **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:32:44 PM »

Best course that I have played in Vail is the Summit at the top of Cordillera. Views are too die for.

« **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:40:38 PM »

quassi:

Can't disagree with you on the views -- but I played in earlier this month and they were still getting through the last remnants of winter. Some of the holes on the back nine were also quite moist (#13 and #14) and they had to totally resod the par-3 16th hole which was not puttable when I was there.

SBJ:

There is also another option that's relatively close -- you can play the Arnold Palmer design called Eagle Ranch in Eagle -- you can see it right off I-70 at exit 147. Not bad and the rates are fair minded for the high season. It's a bit better than many of the pro forma Palmer / Seay collaborations.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:46:45 PM »

Breckenridge. Great Course Great price and not too far (45 min I recall) from Vail.

« **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2003, 09:10:49 PM »

EVERYONE ... THANK YOU!

It's just as I expected ... a few courses and nothing that would warrant the Vail prices. I truly appreciate the feedback and information. From here, and other resources it sounds like these are my best bets...

Avoid the course at Vail.

Redlands Mesa and Devils Thumb would be well worth the 3 hour or so drive.

Sonnenalp (singletree) is supposedly one of the better courses in the Vail area. Beaver Creek's course is supposedly worth a round.

Red Sky ... Norman ... nice but overpriced.

Several people have, as was suggested here, suggested that The Raven in Silverthorne would be nice.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY Appreciate your insights. THANKS!

« **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2003, 09:11:55 PM »

Quote from: john_foley on July 16, 2003, 03:46:45 PM

Breckenridge. Great Course Great price and not too far (45 min I recall) from Vail.

Thanks for the info ... I've played there and it is a nice course. Thanks.

« **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2003, 09:17:19 PM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on July 16, 2003, 03:40:38 PM

quassi:

Can't disagree with you on the views -- but I played in earlier this month and they were still getting through the last remnants of winter. Some of the holes on the back nine were also quite moist (#13 and #14) and they had to totally resod the par-3 16th hole which was not puttable when I was there.

SBJ:

There is also another option that's relatively close -- you can play the Arnold Palmer design called Eagle Ranch in Eagle -- you can see it right off I-70 at exit 147. Not bad and the rates are fair minded for the high season. It's a bit better than many of the pro forma Palmer / Seay collaborations.

Matt ... could this possibly be the course in Eagle Vail? I'm not finding Eagle Ranch in the Vail information I have. One other thing ... the one aspect of any Palmer course (designed or merely owned) are Arnie's Tips typically found on the tee box and usually chiseled in stone as if it were 1 of the 18 Commandments (arnie variety). Traditionally I've found his "advice" to be nothing more or less than ... "Avoid the fairway bunker on the left and the lake on the right. A straight drive will live you a short iron into the green."

While I love Arnie, sharing his wisdom and course knowledge makes me wonder if I overthink my game or if Arnie is, well, simple.

« **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2003, 09:20:06 PM »

Quote from: quasssi on July 16, 2003, 03:32:44 PM

Best course that I have played in Vail is the Summit at the top of Cordillera. Views are too die for.

Quassi,

A member of my foursome today suggested the Valley @ Cordillera, claiming it was the best of the Cordillera courses. Your thoughts.

Also ... is the Cordillera Mountain course the "summit" course you write of?

Thanks.

« **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2003, 09:23:38 PM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on July 16, 2003, 03:26:40 PM

SBJ:

Go to Red Sky Ranch and see if you access the new Greg Norman course. I just played it earlier this month and although it's still maturing the overall turf conditions are quite good and the shotmaking requirements are among Greg's better efforts that I have seen.

If you're looking for something a bit more affordable -- you can try Glenwood Springs -- about 50 miles west of Vail and try to play Cotton Ranch or River Valley Ranch. If you head east of Vail and go to Silverthorne you can also play The Raven Club at Three Peaks which isn't bad.

Sad but true -- the mountain area will not yield anything that is world class but I'm sure Doug can comment further.

If you have time I'd recommend making a day trip over to Grand Junction and playing the combo of Redlands Mesa in the AM and heading south to Delta 45 minutes south to play Devil's Thumb. You'll certainly get more bang for the buck with these two than with many others in the region.

Matt ...

from everything I'm learning ... Redlands Mesa and Devil's Thumb may be two of the better courses in Colorado. While Delta is about 3 hours from Vail I've pretty much ruled it out this trip. Redlands is doable for sure.

THANKS!

« **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2003, 12:13:11 AM »

SBJ,

I've twice typed lengthy replies to your query and lost them so unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the readers) now I must be terse. If I do that again I may never return...

As on the Hawaii thread, you're there for a vacation in a terrific natural venue and golf should be secondary. The courses are not on a par with the scenery they're found in. Do some fun stuff like rafting the Eagle or the Colorado, hiking, ballooning, riding the gondola, let the kids climb the climbing wall at Lionshead a million times, Ford Park/Amphiteatre, etc.

With two days for golf in the Vail area, return to Breckenridge and play the 27 holes there, and if you have the access and the $$$$ play Red Sky Norman per Matt Ward's advice (it just opened and I haven't played it). Breck is the best course in the area by a margin IMO. If you don't have access there and do have access to Cordillera and $$$$ play Cordillera Valley (Fazio), which is good but could have been better on that land in my unBIASed view. Cordillera Summit (Nicklaus) is not Cordillera Mountain (Irwin). The latter is bad mountain goat golf.

If you don't have access or $$$$ then it's Sonnenalp, Beaver Creek or Eagle Ranch. I ahven't played Eagle Ranch but have heard some decent comments for what that's worth. Sonnenalp could be anywhere. I'd play Beaver Creek for more of a mountain experience. I liked it better the last time though the first couple of downhill holes are goofy iron layups short of a creek.

I don't know Cotton Ranch or the courses in Glenwood Spgs.

Under all circumstances skip Copper Creek, Vail Municipal and Eagle Vail. Do not drive to Grand Junction/Delta. It's too far for a day trip when you are on a vacation.

Do play Eagle Vail par 3 with your kids, it's actually quite good. They should have had the same designer do the 18 hole course.

There's more I could say and did say but I'm outta time. I prefer Vail/Beaver Creek in the summer than the winter and think you will too. Have a great trip.

« **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2003, 12:43:14 AM »

Doug ... wow! Dan said you were good, but wow! Thank you. Some wonderful and insightful suggestions. Greg

PS... I sent you a personal note as well.

« **Reply #15 on:** July 17, 2003, 10:26:11 AM »

SBJ:

If time is a consideration you won't be sorry to play Eagle Ranch -- it's immediately off I-70 take the 147 exit for Eagle. The course is a bit better than the usual pro forma stuff you see from Palmer / Seay. In fact, the back nine is quite good as the holes traverse the rolling terrain quite well. The opening is standard Palmer stuff and you may be wondering at that point "what the hell am I doing here."

If you should venture to Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction then you MUST trek the additional 45 minutes south to play Devil's Thumb because it's one of the best muni's you will play. The Rick Phelps design provides plenty of twists and turns and the strategic qualities that Rick inserted are very good. I just played it for the second time earlier this month and the green were in tip top shape. You'll absolutely love the split fairway 13th hole!

The Greg Norman Course at Red Sky Ranch is quite good but it's still maturing. The TF design at RKR is strictly resort golf in the mold of the VALLEY Course at Cordillera. It's in great shape though. One other thing on the Norman Course -- you have to check on it's availability and it can be quite pricey. If push comes to shoove I'd skip it for now to give the course an opportunity to fully mature for the '04 season.

I would avoid the Mountain Course at Cordillera because it exemplifies what can go wrong with extremely hilly sites. The course is bracketed by houses and it takes away from the countryside effect that makes Colorado golf special. Unless you're hitting the ball razor straight there are situations

you will not encounter in many other places.

Although I have not played it I have good words about the new Stadler Course (Grand Elk) in Granby and the newly revamped Sol Vista. Possibly others can comment on these two alternatives.

Enjoy your time there -- few places have better summer weather indeed!

« **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2003, 11:00:23 AM »

Good advice Dr. V...

« **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2003, 06:09:08 PM »

The Mountain course is not the course I was referring to. The mountain course is about 2/3 of the way up the mountain, and is poorly done. Really no landing areas, per se. Not forgiving. If you're a good single digit, you can play it, otherwise, take a pass.

The Valley Course is "in the valley", and I just didn't like it. I thought it was goofy, maybe I had an off day, but my wife didn't like it either.We almost walked off.

We both thought the Summit Course, at the top of the Cordelliera mountain, was maybe the the prettiest course, most "eye candy" we had ever seen outside of an Old Head, which is a seaside, Pebble Beach #8 personified.

The vistas on the tee boxes were breathtaking. I never seen anything like that before, and you can hit a little of 5 wood 250 yards, kinda of good for the ego.

I don't remember the shot values very well, I think they were fine, but the beauty will bring me back.

« **Reply #18 on:** July 17, 2003, 06:24:59 PM »

Quote from: redanman on July 17, 2003, 10:37:56 AM

Advice to flatlanders from a former 15 year resident of Colorado (Had a place in Eagle Vail for a numberof years, too).

1- Altitude+Sun= Ridiculous sunburns
2-Altitude from sea level quickly, you will be light-headed, nauseous, alcohol intolerant, huffing and puffing, rapid heart beat, take it easy at first. If you get really sick go to get checked out you may have high altitude pulmonary edema, ARDS (Adult respiratory distress syndrome). It is life threatening. Having been there at altitude before, being in top notch shape, no guarantees you won't fall victim.
3-"Dry Heat" is bullshit. Watch out for dehydration. Keep the cart girl well paid to keep slugging the fluids.

The views are spectacular, it is never real connaisseur's golf, but it is really great experience-wise. The ball goes straighter as well as longer. About 2 full clubs different for me.

Drink lots of fluids, not just beer.

Duely noted ... I've had altitude cramps before and have a much greater empathy for my child-bearing wife!

THANKS,
SBJ

« **Reply #19 on:** July 17, 2003, 06:25:59 PM »

Quote from: quasssi on July 17, 2003, 06:09:08 PM

The Mountain course is not the course I was referring to. The mountain course is about 2/3 of the way up the mountain, and is poorly done. Really no landing areas, per se. Not forgiving. If you're a good single digit, you can play it, otherwise, take a pass.

The Valley Course is "in the valley", and I just didn't like it. I thought it was goofy, maybe I had an off day, but my wife didn't like it either.We almost walked off.

We both thought the Summit Course, at the top of the Cordelliera mountain, was maybe the the prettiest course, most "eye candy" we had ever seen outside of an Old Head, which is a seaside, Pebble Beach #8 personified.

The vistas on the tee boxes were breathtaking. I never seen anything like that before, and you can hit a little of 5 wood 250 yards, kinda of good for the ego.

I don't remember the shot values very well, I think they were fine, but the beauty will bring me back.

Thank you for the clarification Quassi ... it sounds like a perfect play for the boys and wife.

THANKS,

SBJ

« **Reply #20 on:** July 17, 2003, 07:02:32 PM »

SBJ,

Remember, Cordillera'll set you back $275 per person to play. Don't know about you, but to me that is a bit much for "eye candy." Only Pebble is [maybe] worth that kinda dough because it has the whole package.

Just my 2 cents.

« **Reply #21 on:** July 17, 2003, 08:53:02 PM »

I played Beaver Creek last year and wouldn't call it a great track. It's a typical resort course playing in a valley with some substantial elevation change. I saw Cordilla and would definitely take a shot on getting on there b4 playing Beaver Creek. john

« **Reply #22 on:** July 17, 2003, 09:19:52 PM »

The Valley course was done by Tom Fazio.

« **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2003, 10:02:36 AM »

Johnny,

Totally agree that Beaver Creek is anything but great. Great doesn't exist in the Colorado mountains. But I also would rather play it at half of the price of the two Cordillera courses I've played (Valley and Mountain).

All The Best,

« **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2003, 10:41:44 AM »

SBJ- I am astounded noone has mentioned a short day trip to Gothenburg, Ne.(4hrs.?). Trust me, that this would be the best thing you could do for yourself, ever. Of course that was about your extra day or two in Denver and assumes that this flatlander hasn't been. And if that is undoable the trek to Riverdale Dunes, is advisable over Pueblo or the springs.

News:

SBJ

Dan Kelly

Doug Wright

Matt_Ward

Bill_McBride

cary lichtenstein

Matt_Ward

John Foley

SBJ

SBJ

SBJ

SBJ

SBJ

Doug Wright

SBJ

Matt_Ward

Doug Wright

cary lichtenstein

SBJ

SBJ

Doug Wright

johnnyjumpstart

cary lichtenstein

Doug Wright

A_Clay_Man

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