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John Kavanaugh

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I hear so many on this site drone on and on about how the masses don't get great architecture.  So, what are these great courses that no one wants to play?  Also, and much easier, what are the slogs the masses can't get enough of?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 03:42:01 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 04:20:01 PM »
I'll bite on the second one (though I'll doubtless live to regret it) -- Torrey Pines.

(for the record, I'm not sure how you would even figure the first one out -- I guess you're asking for the most interesting public course that nobody wants to play or a great private course that a lot of people say they wouldn't play even if they could get on?)

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 04:21:19 PM »
I'll take a stab at it...

White Bear Yacht
vs.
Hazeltine

Desert Forest
vs.
Troon North

Pasatiempo
vs.
Spyglass Hills

anything
vs.
Carnoustie

Raynor, Travis, Emmet
vs.
Fazio, Jones, Dye


Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 04:43:50 PM »
I was thinking Doral.

Mac Plumart

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Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 05:05:29 PM »
Cuscowilla vs. Great Waters

AAC Riverside vs. AAC Highlands

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2012, 05:24:02 PM »
White Bear Yacht
vs.
Hazeltine

I won't try to talk you out of your distaste for Hazeltine (what would be the point?), but I don't know anyone who knows the first thing about the course who wouldn't want to play White Bear Yacht Club, and then play it again. Some might consider it strange -- but that's only to be expected, because if you've never played anything like it, it *is* strange.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 05:27:31 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2012, 05:26:34 PM »
They're an hour apart, but Sahalee and Chambers Bay perhaps?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2012, 05:38:24 PM »
Cuscowilla vs. Great Waters





Or Longshadow vs Great Waters!  I did this on a Friday and Saturday a couple of years ago with my wife and a couple from California who belong to a club with a pristine course.  Everyone preferred Longshadow in spite of its rather shabby conditioning.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2012, 05:55:05 PM »
Cuscowilla vs. Great Waters





Or Longshadow vs Great Waters!  I did this on a Friday and Saturday a couple of years ago with my wife and a couple from California who belong to a club with a pristine course.  Everyone preferred Longshadow in spite of its rather shabby conditioning.

To the best of my knowledge, Bill, Longshadow is now closed.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2012, 05:57:24 PM »
Cuscowilla vs. Great Waters





Or Longshadow vs Great Waters!  I did this on a Friday and Saturday a couple of years ago with my wife and a couple from California who belong to a club with a pristine course.  Everyone preferred Longshadow in spite of its rather shabby conditioning.

To the best of my knowledge, Bill, Longshadow is now closed.

Bill, I agree.

But for the reason Matthew pointed out, I didn't choose Longshadow.  Terrific course!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2012, 06:11:51 PM »
I have a buddy in Denver who I tried to get to tag along on a very generous invite to play Ballyneal.  His response when it was offered was that he had heard that the conditioning was spotty and would take a pass.  Instead, we agreed to meet in Denver for a day of golf.  I suggested CommonGround, to which the response was "that place is a goat ranch."  We ended up playing 36 at a Palmer designed club in town.   The course in question did present a bit of architectural interest, if one was focusing on (a) forced carries, (b) three tiered greens and (c) maintenance practices that most benefit target golf.

In fairness to the masses, I don't think it's as much an issue of not wanting to learn about golf course architecture as it is a question of stepping outside one's comfort zone.  Another buddy of mine cannot wrap his head around the idea of the 100 yard Putt or bumped hybrid shot that can be used to great effect at places like Bandon.  He's normally a very intelligent guy, but for some reason in his mind this is not golf.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2012, 06:26:25 PM »
I have a buddy in Denver who I tried to get to tag along on a very generous invite to play Ballyneal.  His response when it was offered was that he had heard that the conditioning was spotty and would take a pass.  Instead, we agreed to meet in Denver for a day of golf.  I suggested CommonGround, to which the response was "that place is a goat ranch."  We ended up playing 36 at a Palmer designed club in town.   The course in question did present a bit of architectural interest, if one was focusing on (a) forced carries, (b) three tiered greens and (c) maintenance practices that most benefit target golf.

In fairness to the masses, I don't think it's as much an issue of not wanting to learn about golf course architecture as it is a question of stepping outside one's comfort zone.  Another buddy of mine cannot wrap his head around the idea of the 100 yard Putt or bumped hybrid shot that can be used to great effect at places like Bandon.  He's normally a very intelligent guy, but for some reason in his mind this is not golf.

I have met and know quite a few folks like the two you describe.  I don't play much golf with them as I suspect I am just a as foreign to them as they are to me.  I finally had one of them level with me that he wasn't interested in "my golf".  He was interested in "his golf".  When I asked what his was, he said immaculate conditioning, awesome facilities, very high slope rating, gorgeous cart girl, etc.  He said he didn't want to play architecture, he wanted play golf!  Hopefully the game is big enough for both of us as the industry is weak enough as is.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 06:58:09 PM »
Arrowhead Pointe vs. Reynolds Plantation Courses.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2012, 07:06:19 PM »
Arrowhead Pointe vs. Reynolds Plantation Courses.

Epic call!!!

Nice.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2012, 07:13:09 PM »
I have a buddy in Denver who I tried to get to tag along on a very generous invite to play Ballyneal.  His response when it was offered was that he had heard that the conditioning was spotty and would take a pass.  Instead, we agreed to meet in Denver for a day of golf.  I suggested CommonGround, to which the response was "that place is a goat ranch."  We ended up playing 36 at a Palmer designed club in town.   The course in question did present a bit of architectural interest, if one was focusing on (a) forced carries, (b) three tiered greens and (c) maintenance practices that most benefit target golf.

In fairness to the masses, I don't think it's as much an issue of not wanting to learn about golf course architecture as it is a question of stepping outside one's comfort zone.  Another buddy of mine cannot wrap his head around the idea of the 100 yard Putt or bumped hybrid shot that can be used to great effect at places like Bandon.  He's normally a very intelligent guy, but for some reason in his mind this is not golf.

I have met and know quite a few folks like the two you describe.  I don't play much golf with them as I suspect I am just a as foreign to them as they are to me.  I finally had one of them level with me that he wasn't interested in "my golf".  He was interested in "his golf".  When I asked what his was, he said immaculate conditioning, awesome facilities, very high slope rating, gorgeous cart girl, etc.  He said he didn't want to play architecture, he wanted play golf!  Hopefully the game is big enough for both of us as the industry is weak enough as is.

Daryl:

Here's a third example of "their golf":

Talking with a casual golfer from San Diego, I asked him if he'd been to Bandon.  He hadn't heard of it, and when I described it as links style golf, the response back was "I don't think I'd like it, I like to have fairways."  It took me a second to comprehend how little of that response I understood.

Was he saying he preferred defined playing corridors?

Did he think that links golf was played without fairways?

Did this basically mean he wanted the course to dictate in a very obvious way where every shot should be hit?

For him, and others of the same mindset, is golf a mindless activity that requires no judgments, no vision and no imagination?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2012, 07:17:10 PM »
Cuscowilla vs. Great Waters





Or Longshadow vs Great Waters!  I did this on a Friday and Saturday a couple of years ago with my wife and a couple from California who belong to a club with a pristine course.  Everyone preferred Longshadow in spite of its rather shabby conditioning.

To the best of my knowledge, Bill, Longshadow is now closed.

It wasn't when we played!  And I believe Mike Young plans to open it soon.  Perhaps he will chime in. 

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2012, 07:26:03 PM »
Cuscowilla vs. Great Waters





Or Longshadow vs Great Waters!  I did this on a Friday and Saturday a couple of years ago with my wife and a couple from California who belong to a club with a pristine course.  Everyone preferred Longshadow in spite of its rather shabby conditioning.

To the best of my knowledge, Bill, Longshadow is now closed.

It wasn't when we played!  And I believe Mike Young plans to open it soon.  Perhaps he will chime in. 

Mike?

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2012, 08:09:19 PM »
White Bear Yacht
vs.
Hazeltine

I won't try to talk you out of your distaste for Hazeltine (what would be the point?), but I don't know anyone who knows the first thing about the course who wouldn't want to play White Bear Yacht Club, and then play it again. Some might consider it strange -- but that's only to be expected, because if you've never played anything like it, it *is* strange.

I don't dislike Hazeltine.  Just pointing out, that the masses would jump to play Hazeltine, although it's probably a bit of a slog for them compared to the unique flavor of WBYC.  I could also probably throw out:

Shoreacres vs. Medinah #3

everyone wants to play #3 because they just watched it on TV.  most of them have no idea what and where Shoreacres is, and i think we'd all (or almost all) would say that Shoreacres is more interesting - architecturally - than Medinah.  Is it a better course?  Dunno.  But more interesting?  I'd say so.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2012, 08:22:16 PM »
Bethpage and NGLA? Although Bethpage is pretty dang good.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2012, 08:38:06 PM »
Call it a thread jack if you will.

Top Ten I Might Dodge:

1. Sahalee:  If I want tunnels, I'll fly into LaGuardia.
2. Rustic Canyon:  I'm not flying to LA to play public!
3. Bethpage Any Color:  Which part of #2 didn't you get?
4. Hazeltine: I'd rather go to Minnesota to watch Michelle Bachman drown.
5. Oakland Hills:  it's in, or near, Detroit. Nuff said.
6. Cuscowilla:  too much competition.
7. Desert Forest:  I know I'd love it, but I'll be at the pool.
8. Pumpkin Ridge:  Bandon has queered me on other Oregon golf.
9. Brookline:  I'd rather play Boston Golf Club.
10.TOC:  I don't go to church, or hang with churchgoers.

PILE ON!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 08:42:47 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2012, 08:41:32 PM »
PILE ON!

What's the point?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2012, 08:46:19 PM »

2. Rustic Canyon:  I'm not flying to LA to play public!


Careful, The Emperor now has a GCA log-in!

And, for the record, I'm planning on flying to LA to play public (ok, and private).

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2012, 08:46:58 PM »
PILE ON!

What's the point?

If you feel pointless, reach for the mute button.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2012, 08:48:00 PM »

2. Rustic Canyon:  I'm not flying to LA to play public!


Careful, The Emperor now has a GCA log-in!

And, for the record, I'm planning on flying to LA to play public (ok, and private).

Even I can't handle a NaccAttack!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest courses no one wants to play vs the worst most popular.
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2012, 08:56:29 PM »
PILE ON!

What's the point?

Check his motto: Often wrong, never in doubt.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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