[John Chilver-Stainer]

Royal Aberdeen, the 6th oldest golf club in the world, established in 1780 will be following on from Castle Stuart and hosting the Scottish Open in 2014.

As can be read in the following link

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/New-venue-for-Scottish-Open/2552/Default.aspx

“Founded in 1780, Royal Aberdeen is the world’s sixth oldest golf club, originally designed by the Simpson brothers, Archie and Robert of Carnoustie, and re-bunkered and lengthened by James Braid. Hawtree is now engaged as the club’s architect to ensure the course keeps pace with the modern game.”

Do you think Royal Aberdeen should make changes to their golf course?

[Rich Goodale]

They have already made significant changes to the course (particularly the back 9) ~2005, overseen by Donald Steel.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Is that a condonement?

[Rich Goodale]

No John, just a statement of fact.

[Mark Pearce]

Hawtree again?  Does he have a monopoly on renovation of UK championship courses?

[Frank Pont]

Hawtree again?  Does he have a monopoly on renovation of UK championship courses?

Mark,

it very simple, it all boils down to R&A connections.
Many clubs ask the R&A who to hire if they want to get a champioship
Even DT did it that way....

His main competitor in getting the R&A jobs is Martin Ebert.

[jeffwarne]

.

[Jud_T]

Quick quiz.  Which Mad Doctor most effectively utilized implements like these to make a few subtle changes:



Was it:

1.  Jones
2.  Hawtree
3.  Jeremy Irons in Dead Ringers

[Adam Lawrence]

Hawtree again?  Does he have a monopoly on renovation of UK championship courses?

Mark,

it very simple, it all boils down to R&A connections.
Many clubs ask the R&A who to hire if they want to get a champioship
Even DT did it that way....

His main competitor in getting the R&A jobs is Martin Ebert.

Martin Ebert is a member of the R&A Championship Committee now.

[Frank Pont]

Martin Ebert is a member of the R&A Championship Committee now.

Interesting, I guess he then either does his design work on Open courses for free as a R&A Championship Committee member, or if the Committee gives him as a Committee member paid jobs it constitutes what I would call a conflict of interest.....

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't think M&E have done any Open course work since Martin became a member of that committee.

[Frank Pont]

I don't think M&E have done any Open course work since Martin became a member of that committee.

Wow, so now all the work goes to Hawtree.....

[Niall C]

Adam

Turnberry ? and as of right now, Troon ?

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

The Turnberry work was done quite a long time ago, I think 2007, long before Martin joined that committee. Troon, I can't say.

[Paul_Turner]

Herbert Fowler's R Lytham 7th green was changed by Ebert/Mackenzie, fairly recently.

[Brian_Ewen]

Have not seen it in person myself yet, but I was told yesterday that Royal Aberdeen have lengthened their 2nd hole by moving the green further back, and have also added 8 new bunkers.

[Thomas Dai]

That's going to be fun, whoops, I mean challenging, into a nice cold north easterly wind!
atb

[Paul Gray]

I imagine it'll be imperative to remove any cross bunkers as the current world number one hits a high ball and they are therefore now to be deemed utterly redundant in the game of golf.   

[Colin Shellard]

Thought I might be able to shed a bit of light on the recent changes at RAGC that have been made since last years Scottish Open. Firstly I should point out that the changes were all planned prior to the visit of some of the worlds top pros last July, and not as a direct reaction to their scores or comments.

Four Greens have been rebuilt this year as part of the ongoing plans to keep the course at its best and make sure it stays up there with the best courses in the country. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 12th were all rebuilt with the aim to remove an impermeable layer below the root zone and encourage the greens future growth. Similar work was done to the 15th and 18th greens over the past 4 years and the surfaces are as good as any in the course.

I'll take some photos next time I'm at the course (and it's not raining) and post more detailed descriptions of the changes in a new thread. For now I'll just say the first 3 hole stretch has got a lot harder..

[Tom_Doak]

I'll take some photos next time I'm at the course (and it's not raining) and post more detailed descriptions of the changes in a new thread. For now I'll just say the first 3 hole stretch has got a lot harder..

Was there a consensus among the members that the opening three holes were weak?  Or is this just about "staying up there" in the rankings?

[Thomas Dai]

Don't ignore the second course, the Silverburn, if you visit RAGC.

Silverburn holes 1-7 and then 17-18 form a very nice linksie loop with some fine green complexes. Whilst holes 8-16 may not be so fine, 1-7 and the very short walk to 17-18 should provide more than just a fine warm-up before tackling the Championship course.

atb

[Colin Shellard]

Was there a consensus among the members that the opening three holes were weak?  Or is this just about "staying up there" in the rankings?

No I don't think the general membership were of that opinion, certainly the first hole is a tough start (although apart from the addition of 2 fairway bunkers quite some time ago it has not been altered). The 2nd, as it normally plays down wind, was for me at least, a good birdie opportunity, and the old green design allowed you to run the ball in without too much trouble as long as the bunker on the right hand side and short, could be missed.

The 3rd hole while a challenge at 218 yards from the medal tee, playing down wind and down hill played effectively much shorter than its yardage and had a slope around the back of the green that returned balls to the putting surface. I think it says something however that during the Scottish Open last year they did not use the championship tee on this hole, but just the medal tee, the championship tee adds another 20 yards onto the hole, and makes holding the green very difficult.

I don't think it is so much about keeping up in the rankings, as much as not allowing the course to move backwards and deteriorate. The work was nessesitated by the drainage issue that has developed over the years, and the club took that as an opportunity to make a few changes at the same time. Both the 2nd and 3rd greens have also been raised up around 5-6 feet to lift them above sea level, these greens were always the last to clear of frost in the winter which means the course is closed, so they hope to have less interruptions to golfing in the winters.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Colin,

One of the more significant and controversial changes Martin Hawtree made was to the 15th Green.
The changes were discussed in detail in this interesting thread  "Changes at Royal Aberdeen's 15th" from 14th July 2014

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59057.0.html

Once again Hawtree  and the Royal Aberdeen G.C.  managed to homogenise an unusual green complex  "to ensure the course keeps pace with the modern game".
I guess there are some divided opinions within the membership.

Here's a photo of the 15th I took while visiting the Scottish Open last year



Here's another excellent thread with photographs of the Balgownie Links in September 2009 and the 15th Bunker Complex in "fluffy" mode.

 A Pictorial: Royal Aberdeen's Balgownie Links
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41498.0.html


Hopefully the new changes are purely technical and don't alter the character of some of the more unusual elements.

The raising of the 2nd and 3rd Greens 5-6 feet are probably more to do with avoiding morning shade from the high dunes to the east blocking the winter sun than sea levels.

However will this alter the playability of the greens from gathering greens to raised greens with fall offs surrounded by pot bunkers?

[jeffwarne]

Hawtree again?  Does he have a monopoly on renovation of UK championship courses?

Good point John-a shame many feel homogonization is the answer to the "modern game"( Whatever the F that means)

Clearly the R&A hasn't learned anything from the dangers of having an exclusive Open Doctor who eventually is found to have no clothes (or work)

From green speeds, irrigation, defined fairway cuts to unimaginative Signature architects , it seems UK and Irish golf powers are hell bent on emulating the worst aspects of American golf.
Heavy sigh

Fortunately there are so many community courses and clubs in the UK and Ireland that cater to the local working man that many won't be as adversely affected due to a lack of funding

[Colin Shellard]

John

You are right about the changes to the 15th, it is very polarising. Personally I liked the look of the old green complex with it's unusual front of green island bunker, however the green was always softer than all the others on the course, which I understand was behind the motives for it's re-build. However the green surface itself is now horrible, there are a lot of slopes on it which are not in keeping with the greens on the rest of the course, in particular there is a shelf in the back right hand corner about 100 sq foot, which is just horrible, but they keep putting the pin on it.

You are also spot on, the new 2nd and 3rd have gone from being gathering greens to ones with very severe run-offs, they are also (and this may be temporary while the new turf beds in full) very difficult to run the ball onto. If you think about the 12th green as it was for the Scottish (and since it's rebuild by Steele) then they are much like that. However the 12th has now been lowered, and while maintaining some of the run-offs, they are much less severe and the complex itself looks much more natural and in keeping with the course to me.

The 4th green has been altered less, and in my opinion, very well done. They have introduced some more banking with marram grass on the RHS, and removed the midgreen pot bunker. there is also now a run off behind the LHS pot bunker which protects the front left of the green.

A few photos I took a while back:
First is the new 2nd green from the fairway before it was put into play, and then again from the 3rd tee the first time I played it.



The next shows the work done to the 4th green from the fairway


As I said I'll get some more when I'm next there that show the extend of the changes better, but it could be a few weeks, as I'm off on holiday next week.

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