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Ivan Morris

A Bifurcated Game?
« on: November 25, 2012, 03:59:02 AM »
It's another bullseye by Gary Player when he takes a dead aim at the R & A and USGA and says: "The amateur is still the important man, not the professional golfer".............and whatever about the wrongs of the belly putter, it's the ball, stupid!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2012, 07:45:33 AM »
Does the ball help the amateur as much as it helps the professional?
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Ivan Morris

Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2012, 09:12:42 AM »
The answer is - an unequivocal 'no' - Stan. The pros get 'considerable' extra help from the modern ball because of the extra club head speed they generate. The distance that the modern golf ball flies helps the long hitting elite players immensely but it does not help the shorter-hitting average golfer in the slightest. Also, the pros receive unnecessary help from using hybrid clubs. Once upon a time hitting high, soft long irons was the separator between the great from the good and the good and mediocre. Now, every pro can hit a hybrid out of a bad lie 230-yards over a bunker and keep it on the green.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 10:59:27 AM by Ivan Morris »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2012, 11:35:53 AM »
The answer is - an unequivocal 'no' - Stan. The pros get 'considerable' extra help from the modern ball because of the extra club head speed they generate. The distance that the modern golf ball flies helps the long hitting elite players immensely but it does not help the shorter-hitting average golfer in the slightest. Also, the pros receive unnecessary help from using hybrid clubs. Once upon a time hitting high, soft long irons was the separator between the great from the good and the good and mediocre. Now, every pro can hit a hybrid out of a bad lie 230-yards over a bunker and keep it on the green.

Ivan,
Enjoyed your books-great reading.

Agreed with your thoughts.
I'd say though the hybrids are no more useful than lofted fairway woods were, it's just that they weren't marketed very well to good players, so they never spent much time improving them for that market.
Everybody loves to say they hit a "3 iron" when they've just hit a "hybrid" which is really just a mini 3/4/5 wood with a shorter shaft.
No chance they could hit a 3 iron that far.(or that well)
I'm OK with equipment innovation that way(I still use a 5 wood rather than a hybrid), same as I'm OK with a belly putter(which I've never used), but I'm not OK with a ball that the higher your speed, the disproportionate the distance gain.(even though the ball helps me tremendously)
And the reason I'm not OK with the ball is that it leads people to further lengthen courses, whereas the other innovations do not cause course disfigurations.
Interestingly, the people that defend the ball the most are amateurs who benefit the least.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2012, 12:56:44 PM »
I am not trying to be a dick, because I believe that guys like
Phil and Davis got huge advantages from the solid core balls. (when I was playing)
BUT
Has there actually been any testing to see what those gains were (or weren't)?
I still have some Titleist Professionals, and Maxfli HT (and RM).  I only fly the ball around 260 now,
and have seen very little difference when my unscientific testing of hitting them side by side has been done.

Phil and Davis hit it 30 yards past me with the professionals, but were their gains just close to the gains over me, made by perfect
ball/club fitting, and the enormous % they already hit it past me?

With fitting and the solid core, I picked up about 8 yards carry with significantly lower spin in 2000. 




Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2012, 01:17:45 PM »
Pat,

Your dad could better relate to what's happened to the ball because he probably played Maxfli's and other wound brands that came out of the box seriously flawed.

They were out of round before you hit them and became further distorted after being hit.
In addition, they came out of the box with varying degrees of compression despite going through quality control at the factory.

I had a compression machine and rarely did a ball compress at 90.

In addition, I had a tube milled to 5 one thousanths of an inch larger than a golf ball, and rarely would a ball fall through that tube.
Most couldn't even be forced through the tube.
Titleists and Hogans seemed to fare the best.

A scientific study, performed by two Englishman, many, many years ago, found that EVERY level of golfer benefited from playing a higher compression ball.

The new solid balls are all pretty much 100 compression, as advertised.

But, it's not just the ball, although I'd say that the ball is the major component, it's the equipment as well.

You may not remember the old Power Bilt Shallow Faced Driver, a neat club, but hardly one where you could grip it an rip it, unless you liked reloading before the ball landed OB, in a lake or in the woods.  Today, with monster club heads, you can almost swing as hard as you want with immunity.

So many wonderful courses and their indivual features, meant to interface with the golfer, have become like vestigial organs that have lost their function.

Whether the ruling bodies view the issue as a negative, as some or many on this site do, is another matter.

Until they see the negative impact as some/many on this site do, nothing will be done to reign in the ball and the equipment.

I'd prefer that bifurcation NOT be implemented, that we all play one game with the same basic rules.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2012, 02:17:18 PM »
Pat,
For your info: compression numbers

http://www.golfballselector.com/pdf/GBS_CompressionHardness_Test_050112_v9.12.pdf

Phil Mickelson's driving average*:

'95 - 270
'00 - 289
'05 - 300 (remained there, within a yard or two, until '12 when it dropped to 295)

*Nothing scientific about the example  ;)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:40:50 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2012, 02:25:31 PM »
Jim,

Thanks.

It would be interesting to see these numbers from 1950 to today's date.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 02:38:32 PM »
Pat(s)

You might like this. A little snippet from the 6-page report, one that also includes some distance numbers:

Could there be developed from new synthetic materials a ball that would differ markedly in behavior from the present ball and make the present velocity rule inadequate?

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1958/580207.pdf
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:41:22 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2012, 06:47:23 PM »
Pat,
For your info: compression numbers

http://www.golfballselector.com/pdf/GBS_CompressionHardness_Test_050112_v9.12.pdf

Phil Mickelson's driving average*:

'95 - 270
'00 - 289
'05 - 300 (remained there, within a yard or two, until '12 when it dropped to 295)

*Nothing scientific about the example  ;)

I think we know Phil hits it farther. The question, competitively, is whether he hits it proportionally farther than the guys on Tour with average distance or below-average distance. Is it really true that the distance gained by long-hitters has increased by an amount out of proportion with everyone else? I'm not sure of the answer to that one.

Of course, if your issue is simply that courses are getting too long, then obviously the ball is one of many culprits.

I do think a ball rollback is unlikely though, just because the average weekend player will throw a fit if he loses 10 yards. And count me in the group that would hate to see the rules bifurcated.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2012, 07:26:34 PM »
Pat
I remember those Maxfli's!!
We used to leave the balls we found in our cars on purpose so the insides would blow :D

They looked like badly made home made rolls.

I've mentioned in here before that my experiences with ball/driver/fitting was interesting.
Got seriously injured in '97
Was off for almost 3 years for the most part.
When I came back and tried to play in '00 I signed with Bridgestone to pllay the solid core tour accuracy.
It took me the better part of the year to find a driver that I could launch high enough without too much spin.
From the beginning of the year, and numerous driver tests, I raised my launch to 11 degrees with about 2800 rpm
By the end of the year (last 5 tournaments...operating off faulty memory) I was in the top 20 of overall driving.  Mid year,
I was about 80th.  PING Ti Tech with high launch was big difference maker for me then.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 07:32:41 PM »
Pat,
For your info: compression numbers

http://www.golfballselector.com/pdf/GBS_CompressionHardness_Test_050112_v9.12.pdf

Phil Mickelson's driving average*:

'95 - 270
'00 - 289
'05 - 300 (remained there, within a yard or two, until '12 when it dropped to 295)

*Nothing scientific about the example  ;)


I do think a ball rollback is unlikely though, just because the average weekend player will throw a fit if he loses 10 yards.

Jason,
that's a common argument I hear, but I don't buy it.
He wouldn't even notice if everyone else switched.
How often is he hitting it predictably anyway, and I'm not sure it'd be 10 yards for a shorter hitter.

Besides, they're all hitting it over 400 yards by now because I've been selling them "10 more yards" for 20 years
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:44:59 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 11:22:38 PM »
Question:  does an old guy who is happy to carry a driver 210 carry farther with a Pro V1 or a Wilson 50?

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2012, 05:20:52 AM »
Most club golfers wouldn't notice if they lost 10 yards.  Average handicaps haven't reduced with the new balls.

It can't be beyond the wit of modern science to specify a ball that still allows the increase in length for average club players but which is dialled back for the pros, surely.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2012, 04:48:56 PM »
... but it does not help the shorter-hitting average golfer in the slightest. ...

The modern three piece ball gives the average golfer spin that he did not have before if he used the "solid" two piece balls.
The modern three piece ball gives the average golfer straighter shots than he had if he used the balata covered balls in the past.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Bifurcated Game?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2012, 05:23:25 PM »
Jason,

Here's a comparison for you:

In 1995 Phil's Mickelson's longest single drive for every event he played averaged 305 yards. In 2005 his average was 345 yards.

In 1995 Mark Brooks' longest single drive for every event he played averaged 285 yards. In 2005 his average was 305 yards.

PM's best pokes enjoyed a 20 yard advantage over Brooks' in 1995, that advantage increased to 45 yards in 2005.

'95 was pre-widespread use of solid balls, '05 was after.


Bill,
Best thing to try is hit both of them and compare. My guess is you'll carry the PROV1 farther.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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