[Marty Bonnar]

I'll try to get along there at the weekend. Any suggestions as to what the content of my protest placard should be?

F.

[Rich Goodale]

I'll try to get along there at the weekend. Any suggestions as to what the content of my protest placard should be?

F.

FREEDOM!!!!

well, it worked for Mel Gibson.......

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'd like to know what the point of the press release was. Why didn't they just go do the work? Was a press release under the circumstance really necessary?

Seriously.

[Bill Brightly]

My apologies if this has already been posted, but this link has a good group of photos of the ongoing work on hole 17:

http://www.hookedongolfblog.com/2012/11/26/changes-at-st-andrews-old-course-spark-heated-debates

[Paul_Turner]

Work has begun on the 11th green.

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/golf/1011/old-course-work-update

Zowie, the arrogance...Its stuff like this which makes me distrust authority...

Ciao

Yes it's gutless of them.  I wonder if the DG sped the process up?  I know some were reading it.

[Paul_Turner]

My apologies if this has already been posted, but this link has a good group of photos of the ongoing work on hole 17:

http://www.hookedongolfblog.com/2012/11/26/changes-at-st-andrews-old-course-spark-heated-debates

Bill good find.  I think it's new.  So what are they going to do beyond the red line?

[Bill Brightly]

I have no idea, but click on the photo in the article to see more photos (36-42) of the work.

http://www.hookedongolfblog.com/2012/11/26/changes-at-st-andrews-old-course-spark-heated-debates

[Alex Miller]

My apologies if this has already been posted, but this link has a good group of photos of the ongoing work on hole 17:

http://www.hookedongolfblog.com/2012/11/26/changes-at-st-andrews-old-course-spark-heated-debates

Bill good find.  I think it's new.  So what are they going to do beyond the red line?

The red line is what scares me most about those pictures. It's so far away from the bunker.

[Jud_T]

I'm far from an expert, but what the hell do they need a bulldozer for?  Just the site of it on the links is scary as hell...

[Ally Mcintosh]

Or to say it more succinctly, "What exactly is 'golf course architecture?'"

What it's NOT, is doing work where after all options are weighed up, all variables considered and all compromises taken in to account, is not an improvement on what was there before.

In this case, the history, standing and influence of the course is one of those variables. And until I know for sure that enough people of sensible mind have debated them ad nauseum and decided that the exact plans on the table are the best option and absolutely necessary to "improve" the course, then I will remain opposed.

Maybe our definition of "enough" might differ but that is of no relevance to my opinion.


EDIT - I just read Balfour's chapter over lunch and although he calls the changes considerable, he nowhere refers to anything other than whins being cleared and bunkers being changed. He does say the 16th green was flattened (and the previous mentioned 18th)... He also states that some new greens were allocated on the Outward holes but that some were just the original green with two holes put in it... To me, it seems like a widened links with new different lines... Not one that had earthmoving done to it in anything but the smallest areas... 90% plus of those contours are nature...

Ally

Take another look at the bottom of page 5, where Balfour says, firstly:

"The changes that have taken place on the course during these 45 years have been very considerable."

And then, regarding the widening of the course he says:

"....thus, the breadth of the course for golfing was gradually increased, till now it is about two-thirds broader than it used to be."

Now using primary school math this tells me that ~40% of the course we now play was manufactured ~ 150 years ago.  That is "very considerable" change in anybody's book.

Vis a vis the greens, read Balfour with a detailed overhead map of the course, as I have.  What I infer from what he says:

1.  the double green now serving 2 and 16 was both flattened and greatly widened
2.  the 3/15 green was greatly widened so that playing the 3rd no longer requires hitting your 2nd shot over the now superfluous bunker behind where the 15th pin usually lies
3.  same with today's 4/14 green
4.  speaking about 5/15, Balfour states boldly that the 5th "is more altered than any other on the links, and sadly destroyed."
5.  as to 6/12 he states:  "(The 6th) used to be one of the most dangerous on the links, but two or three large and important bunekrs have been filled up to make a double course."  Then later, "The putting green too is greatly changed."
6.  As to today's 1th, he says that "...the putting-green is much harder and broader."

There is of course, more, and thanks to Donal for finding the free download.  I would recommend this wee book to any and all.

Rich

Rich - you've gone far enough with this one... The "manufactured" you are talking about was merely clearing gorse and whins to widen the course... Many of the 'greatly ruined / changed' commentaries by Balfour are to do with playing down a new corridor... If you wish to say that nine holes are 400 years old and nine merely 150 then I'm fine with that... The vast majority of it was and is natural contour... Some was made... There have been far less fundamental changes than almost any other links course in existence for over 100 years - I can guarantee you that... More to the point, are you for these changes or not? It seems irrelevant now that work has started but it's made me even more determined to take a stand...

[Jeff_Mingay]

I just watched Creating Old Macdonald... there's a great part in film when Tom Doak talks about the importance of that contour front-left of the putting surface at the Road hole, and all the study and effort that went into replicating that wonderful contour at Old Macdonald's Road hole.

Now Hawtree, Dawson and co. are going to change that contour in St. Andrews?! Is that the plan, and the reason for the red paint lines in the photos linked above? Geezus, I hope not.

[Ally Mcintosh]

My apologies if this has already been posted, but this link has a good group of photos of the ongoing work on hole 17:

http://www.hookedongolfblog.com/2012/11/26/changes-at-st-andrews-old-course-spark-heated-debates

Bill good find.  I think it's new.  So what are they going to do beyond the red line?

The red line is what scares me most about those pictures. It's so far away from the bunker.

I'd be amazed if that red line isn't the demarcation point to strip the green surface and reshape a run-in to the newly enlarged bunker... From all the turf stripped to the left of the bunker also, I'm guessing that there will be some undulation created to either push / gather balls in or repel them away to the left... Guess Marty can update tomorrow... Need a before and after of 11th green horizon line too...

[Jud_T]

Starting to get out there at least:

http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/ron.mon/2012/11/25/a-storm-s-a-brewing

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/golf/news/st-andrews-to-be-redesigned_56012.html

http://sport.uk.msn.com/golf/changes-at-st-andrews

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/7883103/Colin-Montgomerie-and-Graeme-McDowell-criticise-changes-to-St-Andrewss-famous-Road-Hole.html

http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2012/11/changes-planned-for-old-course-at-st-andrews-ahead-of-15-open.html

http://www.cbssports.com/golf/story/12399880

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Furious-response-to-Old-Course-plan/2600/Default.aspx?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Marty Bonnar]

I'm far from an expert, but what the hell do they need a bulldozer for?  Just the site of it on the links is scary as hell...

Jud,
not a 'bulldozer'. That is a lovely JCB backhoe loader. THE workhorse of choice for small earthmoving work in the UK. Nice...

F.

[Brett Hochstein]

Yeah that disturbance line does seem a bit far over.  It is hard to tell exactly from the photo, but I wouldn't think they need to go that far out to get a proper tie in. I just hope the thing stays within the half meter they mention and that the risky putt-around-and-over the bunker contour is maintained.  The red line though, if indeed a disturbance line, does open up the possibility of something different. Sounds like a riskier proposition than putting around the Road Bunker.

Jud,

Where did you see a bulldozer?

[Mark McKeever]

I'm far from an expert, but what the hell do they need a bulldozer for?  Just the site of it on the links is scary as hell...

Agreed.

Mark

[Bill Brightly]

I'm far from an expert, but what the hell do they need a bulldozer for?  Just the site of it on the links is scary as hell...

Jud,
not a 'bulldozer'. That is a lovely JCB backhoe loader. THE workhorse of choice for small earthmoving work in the UK. Nice...

F.

[William_G]

My apologies if this has already been posted, but this link has a good group of photos of the ongoing work on hole 17:

http://www.hookedongolfblog.com/2012/11/26/changes-at-st-andrews-old-course-spark-heated-debates

Bill good find.  I think it's new.  So what are they going to do beyond the red line?

The red line is what scares me most about those pictures. It's so far away from the bunker.

I think the area of the dashed red line indicates where the new slope will start downward to help repel shots and have them gather down in front, but not in the newly expanded bunker.

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

I'm happy to agree to disagree.  Hope we can meet someday to discuss these imoprtant issues in person rather than over keyboards.  Meanwhile, take that stand, and good luck.

Rich

[Alex Miller]

Here's something I don't understand too: so the whole purpose is to put a premium on shot making and therefore I'd imagine making the bunker and its surrounds more penal...

THEN WHY THE HECK ARE THEY MAKING IT BIGGER? Their plan is to expand the bunker, thereby diminishing (if I've interpreted countless stories, pictures, and hours of television coverage correctly) what makes that bunker so challenging in the first place. Doesn't the fact there is often a good chance that the ball will end up near the face of the bunker and force a player to play away from the hole make it great? Wouldn't adding more opportunites (i.e. sand) give the golfer a greater chance of being able to recover without penalty?

Perhaps someone can weigh in on this aspect, but if the contours gather the ball into the bunker, then why do they need to make the footprint bigger?

-Alex

[John Chilver-Stainer]

A JCB is just about the worst choice of vehicle to be used on a golf course.

To begin with it's wheeled, which will lead to uneven compaction of the sub soil, and those stabilisers will make for even further compaction.
Not only a badly conceived project but also a bad execution. Dear, dear we need some experts.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

I'm happy to agree to disagree.  Hope we can meet someday to discuss these imoprtant issues in person rather than over keyboards.  Meanwhile, take that stand, and good luck.

Rich

Sounds good to me.... I was getting derailed from "the cause"

[Ally Mcintosh]

A JCB is just about the worst choice of vehicle to be used on a golf course.

To begin with it's wheeled, which will lead to uneven compaction of the sub soil, and those stabilisers will make for even further compaction.
Not only a badly conceived project but also a bad execution. Dear, dear we need some experts.

Incidentally that photo is just rebuilding shell bunker, nowt to do with the current discussed work I don't think (even if it is happening right now)

[Pat Burke]

Rich,

Yes the land changes subtly over time.  Which of the proposed changes is in your opinion being driven by the natural evolution of the course?  By your logic since a bottle of wine is a living breathing entity one might be justified in uncorking a '47 Petrus, taking a few swigs, taking a leak in the bottle and recorking it because the color seemed a bit off.

This may offend many.  BUT
I know nothing of wine, and this still made me laugh out loud.  Having a crap day, so I have to say thanks!

[Brett Hochstein]

I believe that JCB is from an old picture, not this current project since there has been no mention of Shell Bunker in the works.  The revetted bunkers at St Andrew's are rebuilt every 4-5 years, roughly.  With revetting, the old "walls" are torn down to build the new ones.  The JCB here is likely only doing the tear down and helping with the loading of the spoils, which is done by hand with most of the smaller bunkers.  Sure saves on a lot of labor and play disruption for the course's biggest bunker.

Edit: Ally beat me to it

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