[Rich Goodale]

Vis is a vis the Links Trust, overall control is vested in the Trustees, as one might assume.  There are seven Trustees, three of which are apointed by Fife Council and three of which are appointed by the R&A.  I'm not sure how they decide on the 7th Trustee, but I assume there is joint responsibility between the Council and the R&A.

Vis a vis the changes, I've long felt that in terms of pin positions the 11th has been a one (or maybe two) trick pony.  As Scott McP. said, they need one back left that they can practically use when the green speeds are at Open standards.  Vis a vis the 17th, I think there are going back a bit to what the road hole bunker and surrounds used to be before they completgely re-did the bunker 5 years or so ago.  It is a good idea.  As for the other ideas, I haven't looked at them in any great depth, but as a general princiipal I think that, IF the Links Trust wants to keep the Old Course as an Open Course, they probably have to make some changes.  The course has gone through many changes over the past 150-200 years, and I doubt that anybody on this forum (now that Naccarato has gone) would prefer to play the 1838 version than what we have today, or might have tomorrow....

Rich

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'm going to stand on the 11th green and choke out anyone who tries to change it.
Scott I'm not afraid of change.

One of the most memorable shots of my life was to the back left pin at 11 - for us regular players.
The hole was perfect or perfectly imperfect - whatever your point of view.

Golf is perfect as it is, it doesn't need to be perfect for everyone, it can't be.

I'm not kidding about the choking part.

[Tom_Doak]

Perhaps it's time for a petition.

I have written a note to Dr. Hawtree, and now I will write to the presidents of the various architects' societies around the world, asking them to take a stand on this matter.  I will be happy to post the responses here.  If they wish to lead opposition to the idea of changing the contours of The Old Course, then I will happily sign on.  

If they don't want to take a stand on this as a group, then I will start the petition myself, and ask every golf architect in the world to take a stand, one way or the other.  It is up to the professionals in the field to stand for something.  If the contours of The Old Course can be changed on the advice of just one architect who thinks he knows better, then there is nothing sacred in golf architecture, and all our work is consigned to be destroyed by future generations that think they know better (or are pressured to agree).

I'll put down Scott Macpherson on the side of the enablers.  I want to say "History will show he was wrong," but when you're on the side of erasing History, conveniently, you are also covering your tracks.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Count me in, Tom.

[William_G]

Perhaps it's time for a petition.

I have written a note to Dr. Hawtree, and now I will write to the presidents of the various architects' societies around the world, asking them to take a stand on this matter.  I will be happy to post the responses here.  If they wish to lead opposition to the idea of changing the contours of The Old Course, then I will happily sign on.  

If they don't want to take a stand on this as a group, then I will start the petition myself, and ask every golf architect in the world to take a stand, one way or the other.  It is up to the professionals in the field to stand for something.  If the contours of The Old Course can be changed on the advice of just one architect who thinks he knows better, then there is nothing sacred in golf architecture, and all our work is consigned to be destroyed by future generations that think they know better (or are pressured to agree).

I'll put down Scott Macpherson on the side of the enablers.  I want to say "History will show he was wrong," but when you're on the side of erasing History, conveniently, you are also covering your tracks.

well said

Dr. Hawtree, the Open doctor, 4COL

[Mike_Young]

Perhaps it's time for a petition.

I have written a note to Dr. Hawtree, and now I will write to the presidents of the various architects' societies around the world, asking them to take a stand on this matter.  I will be happy to post the responses here.  If they wish to lead opposition to the idea of changing the contours of The Old Course, then I will happily sign on.  

If they don't want to take a stand on this as a group, then I will start the petition myself, and ask every golf architect in the world to take a stand, one way or the other.  It is up to the professionals in the field to stand for something.  If the contours of The Old Course can be changed on the advice of just one architect who thinks he knows better, then there is nothing sacred in golf architecture, and all our work is consigned to be destroyed by future generations that think they know better (or are pressured to agree).

I'll put down Scott Macpherson on the side of the enablers.  I want to say "History will show he was wrong," but when you're on the side of erasing History, conveniently, you are also covering your tracks.

Tom,
I think such a study would be very admirable and also very very interesting.  I would like to see "take a stand, one way or the other." numbers.  
Also, your second paragraph, second sentence "If the contours of The Old Course can be changed on the advice of just one architect who thinks he knows better, then there is nothing sacred in golf architecture, and all our work is consigned to be destroyed by future generations that think they know better (or are pressured to agree)"  asked a very pertinent question and it is a shame it takes TOC to bring it to the forefront.  My bet is a large majority of the "practicing" architects lean toward "they know better".  

[Bill_McBride]

Count me in, Tom.

Me too.  Vote early, vote often!  "Sacrilege" is not too strong a word.

Not only would the change contemplated defang the 11th green (and the only great Eden green), it would also take some of the teeth out of the Reverse Course hole played from the 13th tee to the 11th green over Hill Bunker.  That is a brute into the wind.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
I think you might find some support from the Greenkeepers as well:
BIGGA Contact
John Young
Position:Scottish Regional Administrator
Email:johnyoung@bigga.co.uk

Be interesting to learn where they stand on these changes.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

One of  the the trickiest shots in golf is putting or deft chipping from the back left of the 11th green to a pin position front, middle, left. It would be a shame if this shot is lost for the sake of finding more pin positions.

I regularly have “deep discussions” with greenkeepers that pin positioning is not all about maximising the greens surface. Certainly there should be enough pin positions, however a large portion of greens are internal contours, feed ins, tie ins, etc and are as important as the pin positions.

It sounds as though the softening of the contours around the greens is an ease of maintenance issue. Already over the last few years the Links Trust have been ironing out the contours around the edges of the bunkers, removing any quirky movement so the triplexes can make a perfect cut. Is this the next step – what follows after that?

I believe if one follows the road of maintenance perfection then it inevitably leads to dumbing down of the course. Good maintenance yes, but not at the cost of historical quirk.

If  Tom Doak is willing to champion a “higher” authority to preserve the historical features of classic golf courses then I’ll be a willing helper. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

One of  the the trickiest shots in golf is putting or deft chipping from the back left of the 11th green to a pin position front, middle, left. It would be a shame if this shot is lost for the sake of finding more pin positions.

I regularly have “deep discussions” with greenkeepers that pin positioning is not all about maximising the greens surface. Certainly there should be enough pin positions, however a large portion of greens are internal contours, feed ins, tie ins, etc and are as important as the pin positions.

It sounds as though the softening of the contours around the greens is an ease of maintenance issue. Already over the last few years the Links Trust have been ironing out the contours around the edges of the bunkers, removing any quirky movement so the triplexes can make a perfect cut. Is this the next step – what follows after that?

I believe if one follows the road of maintenance perfection then it inevitably leads to dumbing down of the course. Good maintenance yes, but not at the cost of historical quirk.

If  Tom Doak is willing to champion a “higher” authority to preserve the historical features of classic golf courses then I’ll be a willing helper. 

John, I did not read that they will be softening contours around greens - more that they will be introducing new / more undulations in an erroneous attempt to toughen up the surrounds. I know how that is going to end up and I don't like it. I am annoyed by this one and am willing to sign any petition against it.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Of course I would sign a petition.

Much of this boils down to the Fred Hawtree quote I posted a short time (an opinion to which Martin clearly subscribes to):

"Golf course architects on the whole, and in public at least, are very courteous when describing each other's work but they start from the firm conviction that they could have done it as well or better themselves."

Looking at the Martin Hawtree's work at Royal Dublin et al.  I think it's likely he's planning to add micro undulation on those green peripheries .  The contours are interesting but don't have much in common with the surrounding land forms.

[Gary Slatter]

Scott and Rich make good points, however to make changes for the OPEN is wrong, the 59s will come from the Dunhill event played each year, when pros play not even from the Medal tees!  To me it is no problem what they shoot, as long as it is on the Old Course that we can play the rest of the year.  Sure we can't play the Open tees, but we can play to the same greens and out of the same bunkers.

Rich is correct too that if the town, and the Trust, want to keep having the OPen,  they have to go along with the R&A and Peter Dawson.  They are caught between a rock and a harder place to be sure.  The R&A is also caught as they won't make the necessary equipment rule changes required to protect the ancient game.

Can't wait to see photos of Hawtree standing on the 11th green, with Trump pointing back towards the tee!

Where's the petition?

[Tom_Doak]

Rich is correct too that if the town, and the Trust, want to keep having the OPen,  they have to go along with the R&A and Peter Dawson.  They are caught between a rock and a harder place to be sure.  The R&A is also caught as they won't make the necessary equipment rule changes required to protect the ancient game.

If the town and the Trust are really feeling financial pressure to go along with whatever the R & A says, that is a new level of b.s. I had never before contemplated.

I can just see that headline:  "Royal & Ancient deems St. Andrews no longer fit for Open Championship." 

[jeffwarne]

Rich is correct too that if the town, and the Trust, want to keep having the OPen,  they have to go along with the R&A and Peter Dawson.  They are caught between a rock and a harder place to be sure.  The R&A is also caught as they won't make the necessary equipment rule changes required to protect the ancient game.

If the town and the Trust are really feeling financial pressure to go along with whatever the R & A says, that is a new level of b.s. I had never before contemplated.

I can just see that headline:  "Royal & Ancient deems St. Andrews no longer fit for Open Championship." 

Actually, it would be "R&A leaves St. Andrews due to lost balls"

[Frank Pont]

Tom, I'm in as well

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom.

In.

At Woodlands last year a few us us got together during the Presidents Cup - and someone asked where the ball should be 'taken back to"

John Huggan had a good answer. 'Take it back to where it was when they started adding tees to the Old Course that are not even on the Old Course' 2,9,14 and 17 from memory.

[Tom Dunne]

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

[Mark Chaplin]

The economic benefit to Kent from the 2011 Open was measured at £77m. The Open at St Andrews every 5 years cannot be sniffed at.

The Links Trust Trustees are 3 R&A nominees, 3 from Fife council, the local MP and a nominee from the Scottish Government.

[Dan Herrmann]

Can we do a hostile takeover of the R&A?   Seriously - this is incompetence of monumental proportions.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Part of the awe of the old course is its natural state

who cares what the score is, as long as the best player of the four rounds wins, then what's the difference?

[Jud_T]

I'd imagine that St. Andrews would do just fine without the Open.  Unfortunately that's probably what it's going to take for the R&A to go to a tournament ball.

[Chris Kane]

Tom Doak, good on you for taking a stand.
Its really sad that the governing bodies would rather disfigure our great courses, instead of addressing the source of the problem they're seeking to fix (the equipment).

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi All,

Well there are some interesting comments coming in. Let me stay that I don't consider myself an expert on TOC – Just a fan (who happens to have written a book on it).

Tom – It's an interesting idea to try and line people up on this discussion, but if you want to do that, you need to clearly establish the question before you start putting people in camps. (NB– Soon Scotland is going to is going to have a referendum on Independence, and there is alot of debate about how the question is to be framed... so this is quite topical here)

This subject always raises, and rightly so, questions about equipment, but it is probably more helpful that they are put to one side so we don't muddy the waters. So is your question;

A) Is it right that The Old Course should be changed for the Open Championship? or
B) Should any changes ever be made to The Old Course ever again? or
C) Is it right that bunkers can be adjusted on The Old Course?
D) Should Greens contours be adjusted on The Old Course?
E) Something else...........etc etc

My answer to these questions changes depending on the slant.

I have little issue with the idea of adjusting bunkers based on the historical precedent established, but I react with much greater caution to the idea of adjusting the greens, green contours,  green approach or surrounds undulations etc. So, have a think about the single question you want to pose and then please let me tell you what camp I am in.

Cheers,

Scott



(PS- Mike Nuzzo; I guess that when you played the 11th hole and the flag was on the left, it wasn't during the Open Championship? They put it there occasionally when the greens are running less than about 8 or 9 and it is a great pin – and my point was two fold;  A) let's get it back, B) what's the fascination with green speeds?  You will know also that the application of sand over time can change contours. Who is to say that sand from the estuary, Hill Bunker, topdressing etc has not made these contours steeper over time? (I am not sure we will ever know the answer to that question))

[Jim Colton]

Does anybody know if there is more detailed language with respect to the Links Trust's mission? Here is what is on the Old Course website:

St Andrews Links is the home of golf where enjoying golf is taken seriously.

We are committed to quality and excellence by:

- Maintaining the best traditions of golf at St Andrews
- Ensuring value in everything we do
- Being a fair and responsible member of the community
- Providing facilities of the highest standard
- Satisfying golfing expectations

Peter Forster, Chairman of Trustees

Dr John Mills, Chairman of Links Management Committee

Euan Loudon, Chief Executive

The Trust was established by the St Andrews Links Order Confirmation Act 1974

[Neil_Crafter]

Scott, your last post is good, well done, but I find myself in the camp that says that there should be no changes to TOC for the Open, and none of these proposals can add anything to the experience for the tens of thousands of regular punters who play the course for the other 4 years and 51 weeks.

Tom, I will support your petition.

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