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ANTHONYPIOPPI

Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« on: November 23, 2012, 09:58:02 AM »
According to the press release, bunkers will be expanded (Road Hole) added, removed and relocated. Greens will be recontoured, including a softening of the back of the 11th.

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/golf/1001/significant-changes-to-the-old-course-for-the-2012-open-championship

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2012, 10:03:30 AM »
“The work will widen the Road Bunker on the 17th hole by half a metre at the right hand side and recontour a small portion of the front of the green to enable it to gather more approach shots landing in that area.

“A new bunker will be created on the right of the 3rd fairway and another on the left of the 9th fairway 20 yards short of the green. Bunkers will be repositioned closer to the right edge of the 2nd green and the right of the 4th green. A portion of the back left of the 11th green will be lowered to create more hole location options.

Signs of the apocalypse or no big deal?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 10:05:15 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2012, 10:22:00 AM »
That's great...I no longer have to purchase the naming rights to a constellation or star trillions of light years away. Now I can purchase the naming rights to a new bunker on the old course.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2012, 10:34:37 AM »
No good in my opinion.  The course is a challenge in the right conditions...unless you need to put a number on the word "challenging", a number that is what, less than 12-under-par over four rounds?  Just when I thought the R&A had the right formula for the Open, they want to start scientifically determining where they can "toughen up" TOC!  :( Let the course work as it should...offer up great scoring in calm conditions and a firm challenge when the weather shows up.  Bummer.

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 12:18:39 PM by Will Lozier »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2012, 10:48:52 AM »
Boo.  Hiss.  Catcall.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2012, 10:50:16 AM »
Shifting and filling in bunkers... whatever, fine. That's been happening for hundreds of years at the Old Course. But lowering the back of the 11th green?!!! That's a bit concerning to me, personally. 
jeffmingay.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2012, 10:54:01 AM »
Shifting and filling in bunkers... whatever, fine. That's been happening for hundreds of years at the Old Course. But lowering the back of the 11th green?!!! That's a bit concerning to me, personally.  

Agreed on the bunker issues-there is a history of revision there

I'm guessing the recent assaults on par from anchoring are going to result in recontouring many classic greens.
Glad the R&A and USGA are being proactive on this issue.
Great putting could ruin the game, to say nothing of safety issues from long putt celebrations.

Of course they could focus on the fact that many of their putts are for eagle after driving 350 ::) ::)
oops, forgot that they solved that by changing grooves on all 12 wedges.

 :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:15:17 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2012, 11:25:51 AM »
Personally, I'd like to know what an acute spur formation is. Does it relate to calcium deposits or other bone issues? Can you walk it off?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2012, 11:32:55 AM »
As we all know, the road hole bunker had been remodeled, reshaped and raised and lowered several times.   Even Old Tom tinkered with position of bunkers, shapes, and reconstruction.

But, as Jeff says, re-contouring the greens is beyond what has ever been done in history (at least as I understand it).

There has to be a line that should not be crossed.  But, I am not certain who or how that line can be defined and enforced.  Or, is it a moving line?  Tradition seems to be a large consideration.  We can't actually go to intent, since TOC evolved and is not one designer's intent.  We need to examine the quotes and literature of the legendary Old Course golfers, about how they played a certain hole in competition, even ask the caddies who have both been there many years, and who can relate stories handed down to them by older caddies, regarding how various holes were played, to evaluate if a tweaking is in order.  

But, it has always been referred to as a natural golf course that is subject to the elements of winds, temps, precipitation, that have random effects on scoring from easy to brutal, moreso than most all other courses, and how that is the tradition of golf that should dictate that this one course, TOC, should not be subject to whimsical tweaking.

It is said how so many of the golden era architects were students and products of their experiences at TOC.  From MacKenzie to Ross, to visitors like Tillie, and even Des Muirhead had developed a reverence and body of memories that informed their sense of the game, its fields, and how it was meant to be played.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 11:38:51 AM »
I don't care who the architect is, I don't care the reason (even if it means returning pin positions that have disappeared over the years due to green speeds).... The work may be extremely subtle - we may hardly ever notice... I've given the benefit of the doubt before to the slight reworking of a few classic greens.... But this is The Old Course. And this is the 11th and 17th greens, the two most iconic ones out there.... And they are being changed for 4 days every 5 years.... WRONG.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 11:39:11 AM »
The same architect will come back in 5 years time to "recontour" the "recontoured".

I can accept repositioning of bunkers (but I don't like it), but all this softening, and recontouring and and making more hole locations is BS.

On the 7th, the large depression in the landing area of the fairway will be filled in and a slight mound created.

Why? So it'll end up like Birkdale?

On the 17th, the Road Bunker will be widened by half a metre at the right hand side and a small portion of the front of the green will be recontoured to enable it to gather more approach shots landing in that area.

Why? To gather more shots where?

 

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 11:41:35 AM »
It seems to me that the only reason for softening the 11th green is so green speed on the course can be increased. When I worked on the crew at the Old Course for the 2000 and 2005 Open Championships, the greens ran at about 10 feet, four inches in the morning. Must faster than that and the 11th would be come a problem since the 11th is exposed to wind and dries out quicker.

After watching the Dunhill Links Championship this year, it seemed that players were putting defensively to the back flag location thinking that if they missed the cup, the ball could end up down in the approach. To me, that green seemed to be rolling faster than I have ever seen.

There hasn't been a need for new flat locations in decades, why now?

Anthony


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 11:44:23 AM »
I don't care who the architect is, I don't care the reason (even if it means returning pin positions that have disappeared over the years due to green speeds).... The work may be extremely subtle - we may hardly ever notice... I've given the benefit of the doubt before to the slight reworking of a few classic greens.... But this is The Old Course. And this is the 11th and 17th greens, the two most iconic ones out there.... And they are being changed for 4 days every 5 years.... WRONG.

+1!
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2012, 11:47:06 AM »
How many pin positions do you need for a tournament of four days?

That is actually more an argument for everyday play, where the strain on certain parts of the course is much higher.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2012, 11:53:35 AM »
I must admit I'm not a huge fan of said architect's renovations, however, to be fair to him I've not seen his best work, I've only seen his worst which is bad enough to honestly cares me...

He's probably a member of the R&A but I can think of at least one other architect I'd rather see entrusted with this honor/honour and I'd much quicker trust with it as well.
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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 11:57:59 AM »
...And apart from all said already, there were moves, applauded by the R&A and I believe realised last year, to designate The Old Course a "World Heritage Site"...

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2012, 12:07:27 PM »
Have I just awoken from a coma to find that today is April 1?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 12:51:20 PM »
I must admit I'm not a huge fan of said architect's renovations, however, to be fair to him I've not seen his best work, I've only seen his worst which is bad enough to honestly cares me...

He's probably a member of the R&A but I can think of at least one other architect I'd rather see entrusted with this honor/honour and I'd much quicker trust with it as well.


David:

The problem is that most of the architects you'd trust to do such work might say no.  And apparently the R & A have already made up their minds to move forward in spite of what anybody else thinks.

I'm saddened.  But it's been inevitable for years that the R & A would eventually figure they needed to mess with The Old Course, after they had to mess with all the other Open venues, because they couldn't mess with the equipment companies.

They ought to just move The Open to Trump Aberdeen and leave the Old Course alone.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 12:56:56 PM by Tom_Doak »

Anders Rytter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 01:03:03 PM »
Wow!

Paul_Turner

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Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 01:06:16 PM »
A disgrace.  Who actually decides to go through with this (names)?  How does the R&A have such control over The Old Course?  

In hindsight it was obvious:  after Muirfield of all places, caved in and allowed the R&A to dictate to them.

I remember there was an outcry in St Andrews when the Road bunker was altered a number of years back, why nothing now?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 01:27:09 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 01:24:00 PM »
I must admit I'm not a huge fan of said architect's renovations, however, to be fair to him I've not seen his best work, I've only seen his worst which is bad enough to honestly cares me...

He's probably a member of the R&A but I can think of at least one other architect I'd rather see entrusted with this honor/honour and I'd much quicker trust with it as well.


I'm saddened.  But it's been inevitable for years that the R & A would eventually figure they needed to mess with The Old Course, after they had to mess with all the other Open venues, because they couldn't mess with the equipment companies.

They ought to just move The Open to Trump Aberdeen and leave the Old Course alone.

+ 100
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ivan Morris

Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 01:31:59 PM »
My first reaction was - sacrilege. But, then I referred to Scott Macpherson's definitive treatise on the evolution of the Old Course and I was reassured by his comments that all golf courses are living things that evolve. These 'alts' are being undertaken as an 'evolving' process by arguably the most self-effacing and circumspect golf architect on the Planet (and Lord knows, I have had my private tiffs with Martin) but I am reassured that nothing too dramatic or scary is about to occur and when complete will make sense. Small changes can be harder to visualize than big ones - so, for now, I'm curbing my tendency to get over-excited.  

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 01:57:52 PM »
Given that Martin Hawtree had no qualms with digging up his own grandfather's greens at Birkdale,  I'm doubtful that he's lost much sleep with this decision.  And he's changed a lot of classic golf courses in the past 10-15 years.   Sunningdale, Toronto, Royal Dublin, Lahinch, Belvoir Park, Dooks, Muirfield, R Melbourne

So self effacing/modest but actions speak louder.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:00:33 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 02:35:59 PM »
One of the criticism' of Hawtrees work at Trump, even from some of those that raved about the course, was regarding the green fringes and I note that he is proposing to do quite a lot of work round the greens at TOC. Could be a brave move for all concerned. If you are looking at making some quite radical or significant changes on TOC surely nows the time to do something with the ninth. A bunker short on the left doesn't really tickle it IMO.

And just trying to put this into some sort of historical perspective, apart from refacing and reshaping of bunkers along the way, when was the last time TOC actually had any bunkers added, 1906 ? Any got Scott Macphersons book handy ?  

Niall

David Davis

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Re: Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 02:43:21 PM »
Brian,

I'm sure more knowledgable experts will answer you but in my experience this is absolutely the case. Not only with measurements, but also with surveys, sketches and detailed photos and these days even satellite photos.

I've personally seen many of these. Not that I can read a map but they were explained to me. However, since they change with nature and time restoring something back to way it's been naturally altered by nature IMO must be extremely unlikely. Although of that I'm not 100% certain, maybe modern technology would allow a brilliant shaper with highly detailed photos etc to do so.

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