[Sean_A]

I still don't hear anybody saying the END is a good hole.  I hear a lot of garbled talk about this that and the other, but if its  not a good hole - what  is this discussion about?

Ciao

[David_Elvins]

I still don't hear anybody saying the END is a good hole.  I hear a lot of garbled talk about this that and the other, but if its  not a good hole - what  is this discussion about?

Sean,

You seem to assume that because it isn ot a good hole, it cannot be made worse by a re-design.  IMO for every good hole I see on flat land, I see about  5 bad holes where an architect has tried to do too much to compensate for the bad land.

How would you feel if Hawtree decided it needed a pond next to the green?

[Mark Pearce]

How would you feel if Hawtree decided it needed a pond next to the green?

Why stop there?  How about a large lake (this might help alleviate problems with the water table) between tee and green, surrounding the green on both sides and behind but leave some fairway out right, for a weak player's lay-up and a narrow strip of land joining that to the green.  Perhaps shorten it to 250 yards, to make it a par 3.  An ornamental tree somewhere in that sliver of fairway might help, too.  It would look spectacular if you elevate the green and place some ornamental rocks at the front.  Perhaps a wave machine, too.......

[Rich Goodale]

As have I, Jeff. Plenty of them. But I'm sure I've not seen a hole as bad as 9 at TOC on another course in the world top 15 or so.

Have you played Cypress Point yet, Scott.  If so, tell us what you think of the 1st.  IMHO it is the worst opening hole on the planet, as well as the worst hole on any of the "top 15" courses that I have played (although 17 and 18 are also contenders--great stretch from 2-16, however!).

[Sean_A]

I still don't hear anybody saying the END is a good hole.  I hear a lot of garbled talk about this that and the other, but if its  not a good hole - what  is this discussion about?

Sean,

You seem to assume that because it isn ot a good hole, it cannot be made worse by a re-design.  IMO for every good hole I see on flat land, I see about  5 bad holes where an architect has tried to do too much to compensate for the bad land.

How would you feel if Hawtree decided it needed a pond next to the green?

David

There is always an element of risk when carving a golf course, but I am not overly concerned with the 9th - its that good. 

I think if Hawtree proposed to put in a pond on the 9th he may well be fired by The Links Trust.  I think we should keep this discussion within reasonable boundaries - you too chirpy Canary-tee hee.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

I haven't Rich. Of course my measure is only those I have played.

[Matt MacIver]

The 9th is so easy, so "all there in front of you" that it tempts you to overswing, to get yourself out of position, to make a 4-5-6 when 1-2-3 is possible.  It's briliant in its simplicity.  Ok that might be a stretch.  But I really do like the hole, as is, for where it sits on the course and in the round.  Taken alone I agree it doesn't have much architectural interest. 

From Doak's original ranking definitions a 10 was "even if you missed one hole you'd miss something interesting".  I think he's recanted on that a bit, but under that strict definition maybe TOC isn't a 10, but I sure think it is given where the ninth hole falls in the round, etc.  The sum is worth well more than the parts. 

[Bill_McBride]

How would you feel if Hawtree decided it needed a pond next to the green?

Why stop there?  How about a large lake (this might help alleviate problems with the water table) between tee and green, surrounding the green on both sides and behind but leave some fairway out right, for a weak player's lay-up and a narrow strip of land joining that to the green.  Perhaps shorten it to 250 yards, to make it a par 3.  An ornamental tree somewhere in that sliver of fairway might help, too.  It would look spectacular if you elevate the green and place some ornamental rocks at the front.  Perhaps a wave machine, too.......

You forgot, or perhaps ignored, the fountain. 

[mike_beene]

Thanks Sean.I wanted to make sure we were not trashing "Bobby Jones" which I can never remember if 9 or 10. Must be 10.this hole is kind of like 8 at Oakmont when the wind at St Andrews is with you.If you called it a par 3 people would freak out.They are both run up drivers when the conditions are right.(although my first putt is from short of the green at TOC

[John Kirk]

Another Old Course anecdote.  I played the Old Course once, and remember exactly how I made a 4 at the 9th hole.  I remember every shot on maybe half of the holes.

Months later #9 was still a head scratcher, thinking it would look right in place on your local muni.  My opinion of #9, excuse the language, is that it is fun, there's tension on the tee with driver in hand, and all in all it's so fucking plain it's hilarious. 

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