[A.G._Crockett]

It's rather aggravating when I read a comparison between a set of greens that are only several years old compared to another set of greens that are several times older.

That being said, TR is a blast.

I wouldn't compare the greens at the two courses, ever.  In fact, I'm not sure I'd compare the greens at TR with ANY other greens anywhere; that's what's so cool about them.

That said, the greens at DC are wonderful and very, very difficult.  Not better, not worse that TR; just completely different.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm with Jim Lewis on this one.

[Steve_Lovett]

I recall the greens at Tobacco Road being of enormous scale having big macro-scale movement without much in the way of small-scale subtlety. Even the greens that are awkwardly shallow/narrow are massive in scale. I found the lack of subtlety disappointing. #7 is the worst offender IMO with the over-terraced fairway and green.

I didn't mind the routing, with the exception of #3 stuck between #'s 2 and 4, and the circulation from #14 green to 18 tee.

The clubhouse is nice and the feel of the place is low-key and relaxed. The golf is high-octane - not bad for a single-digit player but I could see it being nearly unplayable for many, even from forward tees.

I've only played 2 rounds of golf there - but both have had highlights. I backed a PW into the hole for an ace on #6, and hit a 2-iron second shot blind on #13 only to find it hanging on the lip for a tap-in eagle.

Having said that - I think the fact that it is SO different is what sets it apart in the golf-saturated region - and the fact that it is on the way to/from Raleigh is what makes it viable. I suspect a lot of Tobacco Road's business is on the way to/from Pinehurst.

[Tim Pitner]

Name the signature hole at Ballyneal - I don't think you can. 

No. 7 with the E green is the signature hole at Ballyneal--that wasn't very hard.

[Jud_T]

TR reminds me most of Ballybunion's Cashen Course even though I think TR is a better course. 

There's a glowing endorsement if I ever heard one...   Sean, I'm surprised you have no interest in playing Pine Needles. It seems right up your alley.  Is it just down to price?

[Sean_A]

Jud

My biggest problem with Pine Needles is I like Mid-Pines more.  PN is a good course, but nothing remotely special for Ross. 

I just looked up the price for a game in high season - $235.  I need to relieve my heartburn.

Ciao

[David_Elvins]

That a 6500 yd. course would have, in some cases, shallow greens would seem to me to be a given.

Swinley Forest is barely 6000 yards long and it does not have shallow greens, yet is is one of the world's geat golf course.  So I am not sure why shallow greens would seem to be a given on a 6500 yard course.

How many of the world's great golf holes have shallow greens perpendicular to the line of play?

[Kyle Harris]

That a 6500 yd. course would have, in some cases, shallow greens would seem to me to be a given.

Swinley Forest is barely 6000 yards long and it does not have shallow greens, yet is is one of the world's geat golf course.  So I am not sure why shallow greens would seem to be a given on a 6500 yard course.

How many of the world's great golf holes have shallow greens perpendicular to the line of play?

Augusta #12
Pine Valley #12
Merion #10
Huntingdon Valley #11
TOC #17

To start...

[David_Elvins]

Augusta #12
Pine Valley #12
Merion #10
Huntingdon Valley #11
TOC #17

To start...

Kyle,

None of those are perpendicular to the line of play.  They all have a diagonal element to them. 

[Kyle Harris]

Augusta #12
Pine Valley #12
Merion #10
Huntingdon Valley #11
TOC #17

To start...

Kyle,

None of those are perpendicular to the line of play.  They all have a diagonal element to them. 

That depends on where the tee is or where you hit your tee shot. Likewise the case with Tobacco Road.

[David_Elvins]

That depends on where the tee is or where you hit your tee shot. Likewise the case with Tobacco Road.

We might have to agree to disagree on that one Kyle.

IMO, Tobacco Road's greatest weakness is that it lacks diagonal elements.  Par 5 lay up zones, alternate fairways, green orientation, etc are usually broken up with perpinidcular lines that act as road blocks or carries.  Rarely does the golfer ever have a chance to decide how much he wants to bite off and it lacks the infinte possibilities that diagonal elements bring to the world's best golf courses.  

[Kyle Harris]

That depends on where the tee is or where you hit your tee shot. Likewise the case with Tobacco Road.

We might have to agree to disagree on that one Kyle.

IMO, Tobacco Road's greatest weakness is that it lacks diagonal elements.  Par 5 lay up zones, alternate fairways, green orientation, etc are usually broken up with perpinidcular lines that act as road blocks or carries.  Rarely does the golfer ever have a chance to decide how much he wants to bite off and it lacks the infinte possibilities that diagonal elements bring to a golf course. 

Maybe, but I recall a good number of diagonals on holes like 2, 4 (second shot if you lay up), 5, 6 (tee dependent) 9, 10, 11, 12, 13(!), and 15....

[David_Elvins]

Maybe, but I recall a good number of diagonals on holes like 2, 4 (second shot if you lay up), 5, 6 (tee dependent) 9, 10, 11, 12, 13(!), and 15....

The second is a really good example of what I am talking about

 

You either carry the bunker or hit straight down the left.  There is no diagonal element

Don't get me wrong, it is a great looking tee shot but fundamentally boring in that if you can make the carry it is a straight forward shot, if you can't make the carry it is a straight forward shot and for a small percentage of golfers, they might make the carry sometimes and not others.

At the end of the day, there are two lines of play - over the bunker or to the left of the bunker.  If the bunker was cut on a diagonal to the tee, there would be infinite possibilities.  It is an oft repeated theme at Tobacco Road, IMO.

[Steve Lang]

  http://www.mikestrantzdesign.com/philosophy.html

I like TR, played it over a dozen times.  When I travel over 10 or 1000 miles, i like the opportunity to have fun, hit the some highlight reel shots, deal with the gca visuals and manage the maintenance meld, as it is..  

Pinehurst will always be over priced, & I'm fine with that, Pine needles too..  Spend a week in the Sandhills, 2+ rounds a day and by the end of your vacation all holes seem to mush together in memory, with only a few exceptions.  TR seems to create more mental reference points than most courses, than MS's Tot Hill  up the road.

TR's the only course i have a gca's print of..  

[Kyle Harris]

David,

What about the diagonal posed by the waste area through the fairway on the right?

Should you choose the right hand option, you are forced to well consider your angle, and club selection to avoid hitting it into that junk, and this definitely presents a diagonal from the tee.

I believe a major portion of Tobacco Roads elegance are in these not right in front of you subtleties..

[David_Elvins]

David,

What about the diagonal posed by the waste area through the fairway on the right?

Should you choose the right hand option, you are forced to well consider your angle, and club selection to avoid hitting it into that junk, and this definitely presents a diagonal from the tee.

I believe a major portion of Tobacco Roads elegance are in these not right in front of you subtleties..

Sorry Kyle,  I can't buy any of this for one second.  The tee shot is a straight shot that requires a a 195 yard carry.  If you can make the carry then the landing area is generous.  A miss to the left will leave you on the fairway but blocked out by trees and a miss to the right will put you in a bunker (although the land should kick it back on the fairway if the miss is not to bad).  Then it is a wedge onto the green that sit sup high and has a cool bunker cut into the front.

There is no decision to be made as to where to hit the tee shot.  There is no diagonal element that offers risk and reward.  It is a straight shot every time.*  I would respectfully say you are over thinking it. 

[Sean_A]

David

I am firmly in Kyle's camp.  There are tons of possible diagonal shots at TR.  #2 is one of them.  What your image doesn't represent is how wide that land area is.  One can play miles right of a safe lay-up shot left.  The difference in approach yardage between the aggressive right line (and I don't mean far right over the sand/hump) and the lay-up line is significant.

#4 has a diagonal element of going for it in two and one is not long enough to make the full carry.

#5 has a diagonal element on the approach from the layup position right.  

#6 has a diagonal element from the right tee.  

I would even say that TR's diagonals for the greens are very tough because they don't welcome a shot.  In other words, its tough to open up the greens even with a well placed positional shot.   This is partly why I don't think TR should ever be f&f.  The course is designed for tons of aerial shots to tight landing areas on greens.  I would like to see it drier than I have, but nothing like f&f.

Ciao  

[David_Elvins]

David

I am firmly in Kyle's camp.  There are tons of possible diagonal shots at TR.  #2 is one of them.  What your image doesn't represent is how wide that land area is.  One can play miles right of a safe lay-up shot left.  The difference in approach yardage between the aggressive right line (and I don't mean far right over the sand/hump) and the lay-up line is significant.
Ciao  

Sean,
I was hoping my image would show how wide the fairway was (70-100 yards) but even so, I am at a loss to understand your post.  Using the line I have drawn on the aerial photo as a guide can you explain to me why a player who can carry the ball 200 yards would ever aim more than 5-10 yards left or right of that line. And explain what the reward for doing so is.

[Sean_A]

David

I am firmly in Kyle's camp.  There are tons of possible diagonal shots at TR.  #2 is one of them.  What your image doesn't represent is how wide that land area is.  One can play miles right of a safe lay-up shot left.  The difference in approach yardage between the aggressive right line (and I don't mean far right over the sand/hump) and the lay-up line is significant.
Ciao  

Sean,
I was hoping my image would show how wide the fairway was (70-100 yards) but even so, I am at a loss to understand your post.  Using the line I have drawn on the aerial photo as a guide can you explain to me why a player who can carry the ball 200 yards would ever aim more than 5-10 yards left or right of that line. And explain what the reward for doing so is.

David

The visuals of #2 are quite intimidating.  I can carry the ball 225ish and I have aimed to the far left; once I didn't know any better and once it was quite windy.  Much of TR is about visual intimidation backed with easier than it seems shots to pull off.  Regardless, the options on #2 exist.  Its up to the player to figure out the best option for him on the day. 

Ciao 

[David_Elvins]

Sean,

The carry to the far left is longer than the straight hit by 15 yards or so.  You are right about the visual intimidation but I was thinking more about repeat play rather than what people try to do before they understand the course and are more influenced by the visuals.

I still think it is a simple hole to play without decisions for most golfers.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The carry to the far left is longer than the straight hit by 15 yards or so.  You are right about the visual intimidation but I was thinking more about repeat play rather than what people try to do before they understand the course and are more influenced by the visuals.

I still think it is a simple hole to play without decisions for most golfers.

David

There is no question playing hard left is a sucker play.  The trees behind the 3rd tee are more of a danger than carrying the waste area.  In truth, the 2nd isn't one of my favourite holes, but I do like the green. 

I still think the biggest problem with TR is not about strategy, but too many shots looking/feeling awkward or just plain awkward shots.  Strantz would have been better off toning it down some, but I certainly applaud the effort.

BTW - I agree with concerning #9.  The vegetation left of the green needs to be seriously thinned out.  Its too easy to lose a ball up there on a hole with such a demanding approach. 

Ciao

Ciao

[David_Elvins]

I still think the biggest problem with TR is not about strategy, but too many shots looking/feeling awkward or just plain awkward shots.  Strantz would have been better off toning it down some, but I certainly applaud the effort.

I do agree with you that the effort deserves applause and I did enjoy some of the holes - 4, 10, 11, and 14 in particular - but do you thin part of the awkwardness you talk about is related to strategy?  The course is too prescriptive and doesn't give the golfer enough opportunity to take the option to play a golf shotthat he is comfortable with?

[Sean_A]

David

No question some of the strategy relies on bigger hitters trusting their game rather than relying on their eyes.  I don't have a problem with this strategic approach especially for a shortish course.  My problem is more on the lower end.  Many of the safer plays are visually intimidating as well.  One way around some of this awkwardness was just to have more conventional holes such as the 10th - which is hugely under-rated at TR.  Everything is pretty much on view, but its still a clever hole.  I can understand why Strantz wouldn't want to build a more conventional course, but there are limits to everything. 

One interesting aspect of TR is there are tons of downhill tee shots, yet the lack of visuals and intimidation factor is off the charts for downhillers.  Imagine if some of those tees were lower- because many could be. 

Ciao 

[A.G._Crockett]

I still think the biggest problem with TR is not about strategy, but too many shots looking/feeling awkward or just plain awkward shots.  Strantz would have been better off toning it down some, but I certainly applaud the effort.

I do agree with you that the effort deserves applause and I did enjoy some of the holes - 4, 10, 11, and 14 in particular - but do you thin part of the awkwardness you talk about is related to strategy?  The course is too prescriptive and doesn't give the golfer enough opportunity to take the option to play a golf shotthat he is comfortable with?

David,
I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into the posts on this thread; you've given me a lot to think about.

But I must say you are the first and only person that I have ever known to describe Tobacco Road as "too prescriptive".  Whatever it is or isn't, I would never think of it as prescriptive.

As to playing the shot with which you are "comfortable", that's a matter of interpretation.  Strantz makes the golfer mentally uncomfortable by visual means, but I think you can play the ball high, low, with a draw or a fade, whatever.  You MUST, however, execute a quality shot on almost every shot at TR, and the overly penal nature of the course is a legitimate criticism.

But a lack of options and being overly prescriptive?  I think those apply to the Road less than almost any course I've ever played.

[David Stewart]

David, I agree with you that #2 doesn't have much stragetic merit. Get it over the waste area and make sure you carry the little greenside scar bunker. However, there are several holes that I think contain angles and options. Here are some holes where I feel there is a diagonal element in play:

Aprroach to #1 (green front left to back right)
2nd shot on #4 (whether going for it or laying up)
Tee shot on #5 (if you lay up)
#6 (not all the time, but with the right tee/pin combinations)
#8 (green goes front left to back right)
#9 (if you are in the right fairway, the green is set at an angle so getting close to back pins requires a bold shot)
#10 (green angled front left to back right)
#11 (depends on how you play the hole, but clearly there can be angles in play. The tee shot even has them even though you don't have to carry any waste area, you want to be as close as possible to the bunker)
#12 (Both tee shot and approach can have them. A drive means you have to contend with the waste bunker, a hybrid/3 wood layup leaves an angled approch to a front right to back left green)
#13 (At least has angle considerations on the tee shot, depending on how much of the bunker/trees you want to challenge).
#14 (The water's edge is angled to the tee)
#15 (Extremely wide fairway and wide green. Choices on the correct angle cleary in play.)

So that's 12/18 (IMHO). Is that not enough?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()