[Carl Rogers]

The three attributes conspire to make for the success or notariety course.
- location ...  less than 2 miles off the main road from a metropolitan area (Raleigh) and close to a worldwide golf destination (Pinehurst)
- design ... arguably Strantz's best and most over the top work, but in complete contrast to the world famous course in the neighborhood
- price point ... less than Pinehurst or Pine Needles or even Mid Pines

All combine to make it a must and easy play while playing a bunch of other courses in the area

Tell me I am wrong.

[Mike Hendren]

Carl, when I was a kid Dad took me to dirt track races on Saturday nights.  My favorite, the figure-8 feature. It was a unique, thrilling and perilous novelty.  Tobacco Road is the figure-8 race in the Pinehurst area.

Bogey

[Andy Troeger]

Carl,
I think all of those points are true, but at its heart the success of the place is due to your 2nd point--its a quality design. Its a style thats not going to appeal to everyone, but its gets bonus points for being a great version of its genre. I can remember basically every hole in pretty strong detail. We played Pine Needles that afternoon, and I can't make the same statement there even though I liked the golf course. Tobacco Road will be a priority if I get back to that area.

[Tom_Doak]

Is Tobacco Road really that successful as a business?  I have no idea, just asking.

I agree that context is important.  Being so different than the other Pinehurst courses probably raises it up the list of courses to see for first-time visitors.  The same is true in Myrtle Beach and any other market with a lot of public/resort courses.

Location is ALWAYS important.

Price point is completely relative.  If a course is widely accepted as the best in the area, then it can charge multiples of the others, because they're not really competitive.  But if it's not considered head and shoulders above the competition, then price may have more influence on business than the design does.  The sucky part of that is that lots of newcomers think they are going to be the greatest, but only one course at a time can be, and even then, something new can always knock you off the mountain.

[Mac Plumart]

Tobacco Road is a must play for sure.  I'm not saying everyone will like it, but it is so unique every golf course architecture enthusiast must experience it for themselves. 

[Jason Thurman]

Carl, it's a good point. Due to the combination of the three things you mention, Tobacco Road has become THE unanimous must-play course in the Pinehurst area. Obviously a lot of the guys on this board would consider No. 2 a bigger "must-play," but Tobacco Road is the one course that makes it onto everyone's itinerary whether they're a GCA afficionado or just a casual player looking to play at a good value on a vacation.

I played the same itinerary as Andy (morning at Tobacco Road, afternoon at Pine Needles). It was one of the best golfing days of my life (the personal best score I shot at Pine Needles didn't hurt). While I loved both courses, it's Tobacco Road that I can recall hole-for-hole while I draw a blank on large stretches at Pine Needles.

I don't know Tobacco Road's success as a business. Assuming they are successful, I wouldn't discount the role played by their travel booking department.

[Ed Oden]

Carl, it's a good point. Due to the combination of the three things you mention, Tobacco Road has become THE unanimous must-play course in the Pinehurst area. Obviously a lot of the guys on this board would consider No. 2 a bigger "must-play," but Tobacco Road is the one course that makes it onto everyone's itinerary whether they're a GCA afficionado or just a casual player looking to play at a good value on a vacation.

Jason, I would have to disagree.  As a long time NC resident, most casual golfers (or dedicated golfers for that matter) don't even know Tobacco Road exists, much less have it as a must play.  The course barely registers outside of GCA junkies and a small slice of golfing thrill seekers.  Personally, I give Tobacco Road high marks for not only betting large, but doubling down at every opportunity.  On the other hand, I can't overlook certain flaws that drag it down in my opinion.  While I am certainly glad I have played Tobacco Road and feel that my architectural horizons have been broadened by doing so, I'm not sure it is on my must play list for a return visit.  

[Bruce Wellmon]

TR is part of my 4 course "Pinehurst" rotation.
#2, Pine Needles, Dormie, TR.

[Sean_A]

While I admire Tobacco Road greatly, I am in Ed's camp.  The course is a smidgen off great and that is probably due to not having more traditional holes anchoring the over-all design and for me, definitely down to an awkward routing.  Talk about being playable for everybody, TR fails miserably on this account and in the end this will always be a perceptual problem for the course.  I don't have a huge desire to return to NC Snd Hills country, but if I did, I would like to see TR and Dormie.  I don't have any interest in playing Pine Needles or the other Pinehurst resort courses other than #2 and #1 if it were much cheaper - well if they were both much cheaper.  

Ciao  

[David_Elvins]

I am suprised with the hype that Tobacco Road gets amongst the knowledgable golf course architecture crowd.  It is an interesting course to play once, but so is almost any course for one reason or another. 

There are a few good holes out there and a few unique features but also a lot of stupidly shallow greens, clumsy shaping, and forced lay ups. 

Whilst the architecture looks dramatic, it rarely plays so. The 11th and 14th (and perhaps the 4th and 8th) were the only holest that came close to encouraging bold decisions and bold shot making. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Ed,
I'd disagree with you in a big way; I don't talk to anybody in NC (or much of the rest of the SE) who isn't familiar with TR.  "Must-play" is open to interpretation, but most golfers that get around at all know of it and most have played it.

Sean,
To the extent that TR is "a smidgen off great", it isn't about the routing or a lack of "traditional" holes.  You ARE spot on in that TR is a tough play for many casual golfers.  The huge difference between the course ratings and the slope ratings is evidence of this, and it has both held TR back in various course rankings and made some golfers hostile and unwilling to come back.

David,
Dude, you are hard to please!  TR has its flaws, but if it doesn't qualify as dramatic GCA, I really, really need to see the courses that you think ARE dramatic!

So I'm a fan.  I fully realize TR's flaws.  But that golf course is as much fun as anything I've ever experienced in golf, and if I had one more round to play TR would high up my list for the place to play it. 

[David_Elvins]

David,
Dude, you are hard to please!  TR has its flaws, but if it doesn't qualify as dramatic GCA, I really, really need to see the courses that you think ARE dramatic!

So I'm a fan.  I fully realize TR's flaws.  But that golf course is as much fun as anything I've ever experienced in golf, and if I had one more round to play TR would high up my list for the place to play it. 

A.G.C

To me great golf architecture is all about how the course plays. It the balance between risk and reward. Providing options and getting the proportionality  of these two features right.

Take the 5th hole at tobacco road for example. It looks, from the tee like a hol that tempts you to take driver - a short par 4 with options. But oncey ou play the hole you realise that going for the green is never an option and a 3 wood , or similar, down the middle and a wedge is the right play every time.  Many of the greens are arranged so that they are incredibly deep or incredibly shallow. Few have any sort of diagonal element to them that give the player a choice of lines to take on his approach.

I just don't see how the course asks for much more than driver/3wood down the middle off the tee and a high ball at the flag on the approach, despite all the visual distractions.

[Greg Taylor]

Karl, you are not wrong... the routing is fun, the green complexes are very good if not excellent at times, the conditioning was great when I played too. Love also the low key club house.

It's in my top ten and the perfect to anti-dote to Pinehurst which let's face it can be a bit stuffy.

Golf needs Tobacco Road!

[Sean_A]

David

Yes, there are too many long/narrow or wide/shallow greens. 

I will have to give some thought to your complaint about TR not encouraging bold play.  I never thought much about that being an archie's job.  I always think of the best archies enticing golfers to take risks.  Although, you mention #5 and that is one hole where I don't feel enticed by either option!  However, I do think making golfers feel awkward about choices a few times a round is also the archie's job.  TR probably does this too often which is what I meant by the course lacking a few more traditional/straight forward holes to anchor or balance the design.  Even with its faults, TR is a stroke of creative brilliance, however, one should probably accept that like mountain courses, TR is more about shots rather than 18 holes.  In that way, TR reminds me most of Ballybunion's Cashen Course even though I think TR is a better course. 

Ciao

[David Stewart]

Is Tobacco Road really that successful as a business?  I have no idea, just asking.

Tom,

I played there with a certain founder of this website who lives relatively close and he said it was one of the only courses in the area to run in the black every year.

I for one love the place. I have sometimes hit driver on #5, depending on how I'm playing. It has led to easy birdies, and also double bogeys, but I love the options on the hole. I hate when people try to say what is the correct play on a hole every time. That is up to each player to decide based on his or her individual game. And on #13 for example, I didn't even realize you could drive over the trees until after playing a few times. In favorable conditions, I will sometimes give that a go. I don't understand how one could complain about a lack of options at TR. Some of them may be quite risky, but the reward can be huge, and it is up to each player to choose the best option for him. Isn't that a key component of great architecture?

[Jerry Kluger]

I recently moved to the Raleigh area so I really wanted to get down and see TR.  I did not see any evidence of it being a financial success and it looked to me like they were just hanging on.  I knew that the course had a bunch of blind shots so I asked if I could buy a yardage book and the fellow at the desk said they didn't have any to sell but he would let me borrow his if I promised to return it, which I did.  Without a yardage book the course would not be a whole lot of fun the first time you played it.  The conditions were questionable as the bunkers were in really bad shape with virtually no sand in them.  

During the months I have spent here I have spoken to quite a few people at my club about TR and they either love it or hate it.  To me it is a whole lot of fun but someone who is not open-minded will not enjoy it at all.  It also requires a certain skill level and the high handicapper could have some real problems, especially digging out of the high grass.  

I have also played the Dormie Club and to me, DC is far superior although a much higher price point.

[Mike Hendren]

I agree that Tobacco Road is a must play.  I liked it immensely my first round.  However, my opinion of the course dropped farther than any other during a return round.  With the thrill of wondering what's around the next corner gone, the architecture seemed highly contrived and often superfluous. 

As for memorability (particularly the contrast with Pine Needles) I'm not sure that's an architectural criterion that should be heavily weighted.  I find that with Donald J. Ross the total often exceeds the sum of the parts, while Strantz's artistry is almost always in the parts - often the sub-parts (i.e., individual features).  I have often been criticized by admitting that I can't recall each hole at Ballyneal, but find its seamlessness to be a wonderful attribute and the primary rationale for it being a solid 8 on anybody's scale, in my opinion.  Name the signature hole at Ballyneal - I don't think you can.  Ditto the work of Ross. 

Level the price point and I play Pine Needles 9 out of 10 times. 

Mike

[Jason Thurman]

Mike, I tend to agree with a lot of what you said. The fact that Pine Needles has a handful of holes that aren't particularly memorable doesn't make it a weaker course by default. My point is more that Tobacco Road is uniquely memorable, and that's one of many qualities it has going for it.

Of course, it's also not exceptionally playable, which works against it. The 9th and 13th greens are completely ridiculous and the 16th hole is a debacle as far as I'm concerned. But I'm willing to forgive a few flaws when so many chances were taken. Just as you can't name signature holes at Ballyneal or on Ross courses (and I can't name a signature hole on any of the Ross courses I've played), I'm also not sure you can name a signature hole at Tobacco Road. At least I can't.

Still, I'd probably play Pine Needles 7 times out of 10. I love that place and it's one of the most pleasant rounds of golf I've played. But I do rate Tobacco Road just a touch higher on my personal list just because of how memorable and fun it is, even if it's not something I'd want to do every day.

[A.G._Crockett]

David,
Dude, you are hard to please!  TR has its flaws, but if it doesn't qualify as dramatic GCA, I really, really need to see the courses that you think ARE dramatic!

So I'm a fan.  I fully realize TR's flaws.  But that golf course is as much fun as anything I've ever experienced in golf, and if I had one more round to play TR would high up my list for the place to play it. 

A.G.C

To me great golf architecture is all about how the course plays. It the balance between risk and reward. Providing options and getting the proportionality  of these two features right.

Take the 5th hole at tobacco road for example. It looks, from the tee like a hol that tempts you to take driver - a short par 4 with options. But oncey ou play the hole you realise that going for the green is never an option and a 3 wood , or similar, down the middle and a wedge is the right play every time.  Many of the greens are arranged so that they are incredibly deep or incredibly shallow. Few have any sort of diagonal element to them that give the player a choice of lines to take on his approach.

I just don't see how the course asks for much more than driver/3wood down the middle off the tee and a high ball at the flag on the approach, despite all the visual distractions.

David,
I'm glad you chose #5!  I couldn't disagree more strongly about the options available on that particular hole.  Strantz hid a significant landing area in front of the green that only demands a 220 yd. or so carry to reach, but the landing area you DO see is much tigher than it appears from the tee since you can easily hit through the fairway on the right trying to avoid the waste area on the left.  The proper SAFE play isn't driver or three wood; the hole is only 333 from the tips!  It's a hybrid or 5 iron and and then a short iron (not necessarly a high wedge) in.

[A.G._Crockett]

I find the criticism of TR's greens to be very, very hard to understand; the course is only 6500 from the tips and there isn't a green on the golf course that is hard to hold if you are hitting your approach from the proper area of the fairway.  That a 6500 yd. course would have, in some cases, shallow greens would seem to me to be a given.

In the cases where the greens are long and narrow, every one of them involve multiple levels and a green within a green.  Club selection and execution are paramount.

TR is far, far from perfect, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread.  But repetitve and boring around the greens and lacking options off the tee it isn't.

[A.G._Crockett]

I recently moved to the Raleigh area so I really wanted to get down and see TR.  I did not see any evidence of it being a financial success and it looked to me like they were just hanging on.  I knew that the course had a bunch of blind shots so I asked if I could buy a yardage book and the fellow at the desk said they didn't have any to sell but he would let me borrow his if I promised to return it, which I did.  Without a yardage book the course would not be a whole lot of fun the first time you played it.  The conditions were questionable as the bunkers were in really bad shape with virtually no sand in them.  

During the months I have spent here I have spoken to quite a few people at my club about TR and they either love it or hate it.  To me it is a whole lot of fun but someone who is not open-minded will not enjoy it at all.  It also requires a certain skill level and the high handicapper could have some real problems, especially digging out of the high grass.  

I have also played the Dormie Club and to me, DC is far superior although a much higher price point.

Jerry,
Remember that DC closed this summer because they lost their greens; TR never had to do that, so conditioning is a tossup at best.  I played TR in August and the greens were stressed but fine.  DC was closed at that point.  You are right about the bunkers at TR, at least this past summer; I would assume that is a budget matter related to hard times in the golf industry at TR just like everyplace else.

In any case, I don't think they are in direct competition anyway.  Price point is part of it, but not the only difference that would keep most golfers coming to the area from thinking either/or about the two.

I'll take the opposite overall view; I like DC just fine, though it is my least favorite C&C that I've played.  But if I got only one round at one or the other?  I'll take the Road, hands down.

[Jason Thurman]

I'll take the opposite overall view; I like DC just fine, though it is my least favorite C&C that I've played.  But if I got only one round at one or the other?  I'll take the Road, hands down.

Agree totally. Dormie is good but badly overrated. It's no more than a 5 on my scale. Tobacco Road is at least a 6 and arguably higher.

As far as the criticism of greens goes, 9 and 13 are way over the top simply because of the severity of their surroundings. They're both probably less than 10 paces deep and, at least at my visit, were an automatic lost ball if you didn't hit them due to extremely dense grass and hardpan fallaway edges surrounding the greens.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have only played TR once and really enjoyed it and the price was very reasonable.  I played DC twice and really enjoyed it the second time when it was playing firm and fast and the greens had essentially recovered.  I have played quite a few C & C courses including Sand Hills and Friar's Head and by no means is DC in that league but it certainly is up to the caliber of many of their other courses such as Hidden Creek, Bandon Trails or Colorado Golf.  DC was much more expensive but I would venture to guess that a much higher percentage of golfers would enjoy DC over TR.  I certainly would love to play DC on a regular basis but I don't know about that with respect to TR.

[Kyle Harris]

It's rather aggravating when I read a comparison between a set of greens that are only several years old compared to another set of greens that are several times older.

That being said, TR is a blast.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'll take the opposite overall view; I like DC just fine, though it is my least favorite C&C that I've played.  But if I got only one round at one or the other?  I'll take the Road, hands down.

Agree totally. Dormie is good but badly overrated. It's no more than a 5 on my scale. Tobacco Road is at least a 6 and arguably higher.

As far as the criticism of greens goes, 9 and 13 are way over the top simply because of the severity of their surroundings. They're both probably less than 10 paces deep and, at least at my visit, were an automatic lost ball if you didn't hit them due to extremely dense grass and hardpan fallaway edges surrounding the greens.

Jason,

Glad you agree. 

As to 9 and 13 at TR, 9 is over the top IF you are approaching it from the right side of the fairway.  From the left, it is a fair green.  The lost ball problem is exactly the valid criticism of TR and the reason that it has never been ranked higher.  (Full disclosure: I lost a ball there the last time I played; not a terrible shot, but long and left and gone...)

13 to me is completely ok simply because of the club that you are hitting into it.  It is a three shot hole, and the third shot is a very short wedge IF you have exectued properly on the first two; in fact, the green is a bowl and if you hit it, you WILL be close.

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