[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick you've finally seen my point PB has oudels of history and pedigree, it's not a young upstart.

I get an annual invite to Sand Hills and you are right it's very reasonable.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Shadow Creek had no history or pedigree, yet the demand to play it was high, especially when it was initially ranked in the top ten, and, the cost to play it was very high.

With acquisition costs of $ 820,000,000 what would you suggest as appropriate green fees at Pebble ?

Given Trump's cost, and what appears to be a lofty rating, where would you price green fees ?

[Jud_T]

and what appears to be a lofty rating

Where?  According to whom?  Golf World?  Golf Magaizine? Digest?  Links? Son of Confidential Guide?  Top 100 Courses?  It really depends on the source, what their ratings criteria are and whether or not they are truly impartial IMO.  All I'm currently aware of is that it's ranked #8 in GB&I by Golf World (not quite the greatest course in the World, or even the British Isles  ).  Noone else has weighed in yet that I'm aware of.

[Steve Lapper]

and what appears to be a lofty rating

Where?  According to whom?  Golf World?  Golf Magaizine? Digest?  Links? Son of Confidential Guide?  Top 100 Courses?  It really depends on the source, what their ratings criteria are and whether or not they are truly impartial IMO.  All I'm currently aware of is that it's ranked #8 in GB&I by Golf World (not quite the greatest course in the World, or even the British Isles  ).  Noone else has weighed in yet that I'm aware of.

Jud,


Perhaps you should give your heavily skewed and busy fingers a rest. 

Trump Scotland has been near universally admired by all those whose rating pens matter.

So far, every senior editor of nearly every major ratings panel and/or golf publication has weighed in with a positive review of some sort. That is a fact and one you just simply are unable to refute, no matter how petty your efforts. Despite your never ending protestations and redundant bias, you are simply wrong.

Seeing how you'll likely never open your eyes far enough to actually experience the course, your hate-everything-Trump vote (if you are such a rater?) won't likely amount to much.

It remains your prerogative to continually express disdain for Trump the man, but the course (until you've even seen it and applied what small measure of evaluative skill you might possess) isn't rightfully within your purview. Stick to your acronyms and other silliness you excel at.

[Jud_T]

and what appears to be a lofty rating

Where?  According to whom?  Golf World?  Golf Magaizine? Digest?  Links? Son of Confidential Guide?  Top 100 Courses?  It really depends on the source, what their ratings criteria are and whether or not they are truly impartial IMO.  All I'm currently aware of is that it's ranked #8 in GB&I by Golf World (not quite the greatest course in the World, or even the British Isles  ).  Noone else has weighed in yet that I'm aware of.

Trump Scotland has been near universally admired by all those whose rating pens matter.

OK, Who?  Where's the link?  Golfweek?  Links?  Golf Magazine?  Want to bet on what rating it gets in the next Confidential Guide (good call, by the way, on Augusta not admitting women)?  However, your point is well taken.  I won't be playing or reviewing the course unless it's deemed so good BY PEOPLE WHO'S OPINIONS MATTER (to me) that I simply have to pony up.  Furthermore, The Donald certainly doesn't need any help getting ink, so I will go on a moratorium of all things TRUMP for the foreseeable future (or until you say something that really pisses me off  ).

[Steve Lapper]

and what appears to be a lofty rating

Where?  According to whom?  Golf World?  Golf Magaizine? Digest?  Links? Son of Confidential Guide?  Top 100 Courses?  It really depends on the source, what their ratings criteria are and whether or not they are truly impartial IMO.  All I'm currently aware of is that it's ranked #8 in GB&I by Golf World (not quite the greatest course in the World, or even the British Isles  ).  Noone else has weighed in yet that I'm aware of.

Trump Scotland has been near universally admired by all those whose rating pens matter.

OK, Who?  Where's the link?  Golfweek?  Links?  Golf Magazine?  Want to bet on what rating it gets in the next Confidential Guide (good call, by the way, on Augusta not admitting women)?  However, your point is well taken.  I won't be playing or reviewing the course unless it's deemed so good BY PEOPLE WHO'S OPINIONS MATTER (to me) that I simply have to pony up.  Furthermore, The Donald certainly doesn't need any help getting ink, so I will go on a moratorium of all things TRUMP for the foreseeable future (or until you say something that really pisses me off  ).

Do your research (oops...I forgot debt salesmen hacks aren't really equipped for such a task!) before you spout off . Each and every periodical you cite have had their ratings editors publish very positive personal reviews. Just do the work and find them out for yourself. Several real raters (ones who've been doing it for a long time and have major #'s of courses under their belt) have voiced similar opinions.

 As for Tom Doak's opinion in any new CG, that's one man's vote and more than well balanced by the likes of Geoff Shackleford, et.al. who've actually seen the course. I suggest you look at other sphincters to crawl into before you throw your lot behind just one.

Same for my opinion on ANGC admitting women. Once again you prove your ignorance as I was the one who bet $$ they'd admit Virginia Rommety before the 2013 Masters. I may be wrong (or right) on that the gal they picked, but I strongly believed (and wrote it here) that women would be admitted within 12mos.

Finally, you ought to consider whether your perpetual dumping of ink on these pages has much in the way of any contributory purpose?
Hardly a thread goes up here that you don't throw your one-cent into. All of this without making a single contribution to the costs of running this site!  Others who've long lingered here and used to making meaningful content and financial contributions to GCA have remarked the same about your drivel. Might be time to read closer, research more and post less....just saying!!

[Jud_T]

Speaking of research, I have contributed for the past several years, just not yet this year (and I'm not a bond salesman)...As for Trump, I apologize if I've hurt your sensitive feelings.  My family has had personal dealings with the man that I won't air here that lead me to be admittedly biased.  If he has contributed greatly to the history of golf in Scotland by building a 7400 yard tournament course that costs $300 to play well then I guess I'm happier than a pig in sh*t....

[Jed Peters]

This is an awesome thread. I don't know the history on the Jud thing, but (S)lapper--that was beautiful commentary.

[Niall C]

Niall,

I take as dim of a view of these courses as just about anyone here but that's just plain silly.  Whether a job is created or saved it's one and the same.  People need work to keep their jobs as well.

Jud

As someone who has been made redundant more than once, I know well the value of keeping a job and the cost of not keeping a job. However when you are assessing the value of a development there is a difference between jobs being kept and double counting. Back when this development was still at the drawing board stage, I had a conversation with a former partner of the large accountancy practice thats had some involvement in Trump Scotland and asked him about some of the claims. Let me tell you he laughed long and hard when I mentioned some of the figures being bandied about. The worst of it is the planners, either locally or nationally, didn't seem to do any due diligence as afar as I can tell. When you consider the economic development angle was the sole reason for granting planning permission then that is inexcusable if its true.

Niall

[Howard Riefs]

Paperwork filed. Hawtree design again.

DONALD Trump has formally submitted a planning application for the second championship course at his £750 million Aberdeenshire golf resort he plans to name in honour of his Scottish mother.

The second course at the Menie Estate is to be named the Mary MacLeod course as a tribute to his late mother, Mary Anne, the seventh child of Lewis fisherman and crofter Malcolm MacLeod and his wife Mary Smith.

The new course has been designed by acclaimed golf architect Dr Martin Hawtree who also designed the main championship course at the golf resort.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/donald-trump-applies-to-build-second-golf-course-1-2784868

[Jim Colton]

Here's the proposed routing:

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/feb/11/trump-reveals-routing-second-course-scotland/

[Patrick_Mucci]

Remind me again, who were the people claiming that Trump would never introduce a second course

Time to stand up and admit that you were dead wrong.

I feel your pain  

Is that a double green ?

Double fairway ?

[Alex Miller]

Remind me again, who were the people claiming that Trump would never introduce a second course

Time to stand up and admit that you were dead wrong.

I feel your pain  

Is that a double green ?

Double fairway ?

I think I saw a quadruple fairway (not four options, but four separate pieces of fairway on a par 5).

I will reserve judgement, but point out the walk from 17 to 18 looks long. (~250 yards?)

[Ally Mcintosh]

Dear Dr.Hawtree,

Please build more greens similar in style to that of the 8th on the main course.

I have a feeling that the 2nd course could be great... without the severity of the land and without the same "championship" pressure as the 1st course... If the rulebook is thrown out the window a little...

Thank you,
Ally

[Niall C]

Remind me again, who were the people claiming that Trump would never introduce a second course

Time to stand up and admit that you were dead wrong.

I feel your pain  

Is that a double green ?

Double fairway ?

Patrick

I'm pretty sure I didn't make such a claim and can't think of anyone else who did. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Thanks

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Remind me again, who were the people claiming that Trump would never introduce a second course

Time to stand up and admit that you were dead wrong.

I feel your pain  

Is that a double green ?

Double fairway ?

Patrick

I'm pretty sure I didn't make such a claim and can't think of anyone else who did.
Perhaps you could enlighten me.



Niall, Niall, Niall,

Shirley you jest.

How quickly you forget.

In a number of threads, several "experts" claimed that Trump wouldn't make good on his word to build another course.

When I have the time, probably this weekend, I'll look for the miscreants and morons names

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Remind me again, who were the people claiming that Trump would never introduce a second course

Time to stand up and admit that you were dead wrong.

I feel your pain  

Is that a double green ?

Double fairway ?

Patrick

I'm pretty sure I didn't make such a claim and can't think of anyone else who did.
Perhaps you could enlighten me.



Niall, Niall, Niall,

Shirley you jest.

How quickly you forget.

In a number of threads, several "experts" claimed that Trump wouldn't make good on his word to build another course.

When I have the time, probably this weekend, I'll look for the miscreants and morons names

Good luck with that endeavour. Could you also produce proof that the second course is going ahead. Better still, can you prove that the first course does indeed exist?  Proof, Pat, that's what we want; not hearsay, not articles on the web, not hot air from the expectorating Trump, but proof! 

[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick unless he builds 30 mores courses in Aberdeen there will not be the 5000 jobs that caused the planning to be granted in the first place. Security guards seem to be doing well which is odd as a nice friendly community based project wouldn't need any!

[Steve Lapper]

Here's the proposed routing:

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/feb/11/trump-reveals-routing-second-course-scotland/

As has become usual around these parts, I'm sure most of the regular Trump-haters will condemn everything about this plan for a second course, miss the point, spout out vitriol, and waste space on this thread. On the other hand most any of us who've seen the property and or have played the existing course will likely be excited to focus on Hawtree's most interesting proposed routing.

The use of pastoral land to take you in and out of the dunescape will seem like an aesthetic sandwich with "double meat" in the middle. Holes 5 through 16 will be set amidst those towering dunes that dominate the property and include several holes with multiple and split fairways, double greens, drivable par fours, and double-doglegs....all features any reasonable fan of GCA should wish for. The lack of returning nines seems mandated by the desire to maximize the preferable terrain. 3 holes will be directly seaside and likely offer lovely visuals. The dunes are massive down there and will wreck havoc with the winds that are plentiful and multi-directional.

I, for one, look forward to seeing this course built and argue that no matter what you think of Donald Trump, he's giving us golfers the potential for yet another very, very good course that promises to offer equal doses of golfing pleasure and pain....just the prescription I seek in Scottish links.

[Mark Pearce]

Steve,

Not one negative comment yet.  Just Ally's suggestion that Hawtree could design an excellent course on the land. 

[Steve Lapper]

Steve,

Not one negative comment yet.  Just Ally's suggestion that Hawtree could design an excellent course on the land. 

Mark,

  Ha! Ha! I'll try to judge Mark Chaplin's remarks re: jobs as moderate. The 5000 jobs is no doubt inflated and I won't be the one to know what the right # is...though some have definitely been created and last I heard, some are better than none!   
   I'll keep my fingers crossed but I bet there are some our there just chomping at the bit to criticize and deplore anything Trump. Having played the existing course and toured the entire property, I'm really excited to see what Hawtree and Graubelle designs will become. My personal belief is that this venue has and will become a must play and value add on any trip to Aberdeenshire. Cheers!

[Adam Lawrence]

Caspar doesn't work for Martin any more. Must ask him whether he's going to be involved this time.

[Steve Lapper]

Caspar doesn't work for Martin any more. Must ask him whether he's going to be involved this time.

Adam,


Didn't know that....Me thinks Caspar is an immensely talented and thoughtful gentleman. Please do tell us if he's gone out on his own?

[Ally Mcintosh]

He's gone out on his own Steve. But when he left Hawtree it was stated that the relationship would continue for some existing clients. So not sure the story with the second Trump course.

[Adam Lawrence]

This is his site http://bycaspar.com/home

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