Trump Scotland #2

[Ally Mcintosh]

I can't recall whether I ever saw a routing for the second course... But the land was designated in the master plan on the below link.... Some dune land at the bottom and some inland stuff that should tie nicely in to the heather and wetlands to the left of the current 5th - 8th holes, in many ways the most interesting part of the course... http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/files/TIGLS%20Master%20Plan%20Brochure.pdf

[Mark Chaplin]

I don't care who designed, built or paid for a course. What I do take note of is a brand new course charging 30% more for a round than the Old Course at St Andrews. I cannot believe anyone other than a few dumb ass tourists would consider paying that for a round on a course with zero history or pedigree in a country loaded with golfing greats at 1/2 the price.

[Niall C]

Fazio had nothing to do with this routing.

 Before the noise rolls off the tongues flapping of those who've yet to see the course, I suggest a refrain from pure speculation and see it for yourself. After all, don't forget the likes of Shackleford, Klein, Passov and Baum all unanimously praised the routing, design and construction.....oops I forgot most of you also believe you know more (and dream you've seen more) than them!

 Isn't such speculation and negative inference fundamentally no different than the hyperbole many of you so endeavor to sneer at?

 BTW...I'm not at all sure that any 2nd course construction will start anytime soon.

Steve

Your email caused me to search out the above named reviews of the course. The only one I found was Joe Passov's and in fairness he's not saying anything different to what's being said on here in relation to fairways, green surrounds etc.

I'm also arrogant enough to think that with a basic education in golf course design, a reasonable experience of playing in different countries and most crucially, I would guess more links experience than those four named golf writers put together that my opinion is as valid as there's if not more so. I mean that with respect.

Of course evryone else on this thread is a numpty  but after all it is a discussion board so let them have their say, even if they don't know nearly as much as I do.

Niall

[Steve Lapper]

Niall,

   As you know, a critical review of the course is most definitely called for and the consensus opinion is praise sprinkled (rightfully) with minor issues. I suspect such issues are not lost on the operating and  Hawtree teams. It's hard for any course to "open" perfect and rate flawless around these parts, unless of course it's a Doak. :~)

   Btw......Sirs Klein and Passov have most likely seen more links than near all here combined.......they've both traveled the world a few times over and I'll wager on them all days.  I played with them on the days they evaluated Balmedie and our discussions were quite detailed and through.

  Cheers 

[Niall C]

Steve

Thanks for picking up on my intent on humour, sometimes it ain't obvious which can lead to offence being taken when none was meant.

With regards to my comment on links experience, I was being fairly careful how I worded that. I've played a fair number of links courses including most of those in Scotland and a few elsewhere, mainly in Ireland but would imagine that one or maybe even all of the gentlemen listed might have played more links courses than I have. However I doubt that any of them has played anything like as much links golf as I have and thus don't have anything like the links experience I have.

Of course my first assumption there is that the gentlemen concerned reside outwith GB&I (or any other land with links courses) and therefore don't have a links as a home course. My second assumption, or perhaps I should call it a contention, is that when it comes to judging a links, the amount of playing time on a links is more relevant than how many links courses you've played.

I think the playing time aspect is more relevant in judging links than perhaps other types of courses. For example, my experience on links suggests to me that routing a course to take advantage of different wind directions and trying to vary lengths of holes to provide variety is much less relevant on links when wind strengths and direction usually vary, sometimes quite significantly, during a round.

Of course, I might just be being big-headed 

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

Niall lots of people on here have played 5x the number of links courses than I have, yet I've played Deal, Sandwich and Rye together many hundreds of times and can also claim to know a bit about the links. A two week gallop around 14 courses maybe fun but doesn't give a massive insight into the courses and how to play them.

Other than the cost the ethics behind the construction of the course and treatment of the locals leaves a sour taste. Although I'm sure 5000 people are leaving for work tomorrow morning at Trump Scotland and grateful for the work.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't care who designed, built or paid for a course. What I do take note of is a brand new course charging 30% more for a round than the Old Course at St Andrews. I cannot believe anyone other than a few dumb ass tourists would consider paying that for a round on a course with zero history or pedigree in a country loaded with golfing greats at 1/2 the price.

Mark,

So a course has to have a "history" or a "pedigree" in order to be worthy of play ?

That same elitist attitude greeted Shadow Creek when it debuted.

Why not value the course on its architectural or playing merits ?

Should Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes have been shunned or ostracized because they had "zero history", or "zero pedigree" ?

I don't think you're being fair and/or objective.

Perhaps Trump irritates you, but from what I've heard from people who have played the first course, including Brad Klein, some seem to think the first course is outstanding.

Should the cost to play be used to determine the architectural merits of a golf course ?

If so, Pebble Beach wouldn't fare so well, would it ?

And how about clubs like CPC, Shinnecock and ANGC where costs could be even more ?

I think you might be letting your distaste for an individual get in the way of honest architectural assessments of the golf courses he's associated with.

[Mark Pearce]

Pat,

I don't think Mark's point is motivated by any feelings toward Trump.  He, like me, has a problem paying more to pay a modern course, no matter how good, than it costs to play the Old Course.  I wouldn't go as far as he does in describing those who would as "dumb ass", I can understand why they may want to.  For me, however, I would find it difficult to justify spending more money to play Trump (or Castle Stuart or Kingsbarns or the Castle Course) than I would need to spend to play TOC.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I fully admit that I have a problem with Trump that I won't air here.  I will not play it unless people who's opinion I respect tell me it's well worth it and even then I'll have some soul searching to do.  Generally when I go to GB&I it's to play the old links courses.  We have plenty of excellent modern courses on this side of the pond that don't involve jet lag, an expensive plane ticket and warm beer.  When the cost is a multiple of a classic old links, Cruden Bay, Murcar or Royal Aberdeen in this instance, it becomes a pretty high bar IMO.  I'm not sure exactly who the target market is for this project, wealthy Londoners looking for weekend property?  Wall Streeters on a bus tour?  Locals willing to pay up occasionally for a tournament course?  I don't get it, but I fully admit that I'm not an unbiased judge of things in this instance.  My prejudices aside, from a value perspective, I'd guess it's going to be hard to justify 18 at Trump versus 36 at Cruden Bay at double the price (not sure what/if Trump's replay rate is) for the discerning golfer.  

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat - Sand Hills is a private members club so there's no relevance there. Did Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes charge the same as Pebble Beach? I believe not. Shadow Creek as I understand it was built mainly to cater for the gaming market in Las Vegas, a rather unique set of circumstances and not really market driven pricing.
  
I also do not believe I can pay a greenfee at CPC, Shinnecock or ANGC if I can I'd be delighted to have a game and pay your greenfee as well.

I really do have nothing against Trump as a businessman and owner of golf courses. I do object to the bully boy tactics used at the site. Cutting off people's water supply, building 30' banks of earth in front of residents properties and having a small army of security guards monitoring residents. For those reasons and those reasons alone I hope the project fails to make him a penny.

When I play in Scotland I'm a tourist so I'm not using any national bias in my earlier statement.

[Chris DeNigris]

Pat - Sand Hills is a private members club so there's no relevance there. Did Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes charge the same as Pebble Beach? I believe not. Shadow Creek as I understand it was built mainly to cater for the gaming market in Las Vegas, a rather unique set of circumstances and not really market driven pricing.
  
I also do not believe I can pay a greenfee at CPC, Shinnecock or ANGC if I can I'd be delighted to have a game and pay your greenfee as well.

I really do have nothing against Trump as a businessman and owner of golf courses. I do object to the bully boy tactics used at the site. Cutting off people's water supply, building 30' banks of earth in front of residents properties and having a small army of security guards monitoring residents. For those reasons and those reasons alone I hope the project fails to make him a penny.

When I play in Scotland I'm a tourist so I'm not using any national bias in my earlier statement.

Mark,

When you and others use your anti-Trump feelings to wish the Trump Scotland project to fail- it will only hurt those very locals in Aberdeenshire that have been so horribly victimized by this new golf course. It might annoy The Don Don but it certainly won't put a dent in him financially.

Better to wish the course be a resounding success for the sake of the local folks. And then summon all your Donald vitriol into a powerful collective wish that Donald develops a mysterious disease that causes permanent hair loss or permanent laryngitis...or both.

[Mark Chaplin]

Chris - fail to make a profit is a long way from saying I wish the project fails, I am well aware 5000 jobs depend on it.

[Chris DeNigris]

Chris - fail to make a profit is a long way from saying I wish the project fails, I am well aware 5000 jobs depend on it.

Mark,

Not a very long journey from unprofitable to failure. But I suppose if it's only 500 jobs that were lost or never realized then that would make it more palatable in your view. That's a sad approach.

If the golf course becomes a "must play" resounding success (The Don notwithstanding) and the full extent of the resort and surrounding development is eventually realized- then yes, maybe there will be several thousand new jobs created and sustained in the area. Is that a bad thing to hope for?

Again, I'm not a Trump fan but I am a fan of great golf and great links golf. I hope this project is wildly successful and more people discover this part of Scotland.

[Mark Chaplin]

Chris so you are completely comfortable with the methods employed at the neighbours expense? Trees to block sea views from a historic house, a 25' mound of earth to screen off another house?

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/10/donald-trump-100m-golf-course?cat=world&type=article

http://aberdeenvoice.com/2012/07/behind-the-gloss-and-glitter-of-trumps-menie-golf-course/

There are winners, a respected North East England club has a new superintendent who left Aberdeen as he would not comply with the orders to do the dirty work against the neighbours.

[Niall C]

Niall lots of people on here have played 5x the number of links courses than I have, yet I've played Deal, Sandwich and Rye together many hundreds of times and can also claim to know a bit about the links. A two week gallop around 14 courses maybe fun but doesn't give a massive insight into the courses and how to play them.

....nor does it mean you have time to adapt your game to links sich that its second nature, which was really the point I was trying to make. Steve was looking to perhaps defend the guys listed and their views on the course (which if Joe Passov's comments are an example, are that much different from many of the comments made on here anyway) which is fair enough but I don't really think you can say certain posters on here who maybe haven't played as much links golf as Geoff, Brad and Joe etc that there views are invalid.

BTW, it made me think how many rounds on links I'd played and its really impossible to calculate without at least a 10% margin either way.

Niall

[Niall C]

Chris

I suspect that Mark's repeated mention of 5,000 jobs was perhaps meant to be ironic. I feel certain many took with a pinch of salt initially while probably by now even more see it for what it is. Also, not to labour the point too much, but the Aberdeen economy is streets ahead of the rest of the UK with local politicians and business leaders expressing concerns about a lack of skilled and trained staff for the oil services sector. Thats the real driver for Aberdeen, not 50 or so chambermaids and waitresses brought in from abroad.

Niall

[Niall C]

Pat,

I don't think Mark's point is motivated by any feelings toward Trump.  He, like me, has a problem paying more to pay a modern course, no matter how good, than it costs to play the Old Course.  I wouldn't go as far as he does in describing those who would as "dumb ass", I can understand why they may want to.  For me, however, I would find it difficult to justify spending more money to play Trump (or Castle Stuart or Kingsbarns or the Castle Course) than I would need to spend to play TOC.

Mark

I've played all of the courses you list other than the Castle course and ironically TOC is the only one I've paid top dollar for and that was when the charge was £105. I think we tend to forget on this discussion board that it isn't all american golfers playing these courses but that the locals make up a fair percentage except they aren't paying top rate.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall, Mark... I let the 5,000 jobs comment go but it repeatedly surfaces so thought I'd throw my tuppence in... Having worked most of my professional life on big engineering and construction jobs, I'm well used to these announcements about jobs... They always, always refer to the jobs created both through design, procurement and construction as well as the final operating and maintenance numbers.... To create 900 houses, a hotel, two golf courses and the rest, a few thousand jobs seems to me about right.... In my opinion, this is no different to any other announcement, it is not Trump bluster.... They have, of course, yet to materialise... But if the full master plan is built, it won't be far off the mark...

[Mark Chaplin]

Ally - I only quote the jobs figure as that was one of the biggest selling points of the project to the people of Scotland. There is a big difference between 5000 people being employed on a project and the same number of jobs being created. Building 900 houses would create work for a large number of people for a few months and not all at the same time.

I've still yet to see any of the Trump "fans" admit some of the tactics employed were rather poor.

[Niall C]

Ally

Mark's point about the difference between jobs created and those employed is well made. How much of the work created is for people already in employment, for instance the workers in the Irish construction company that built the course ? The development undoubtedly will be phased so is it a new job at the beginning of every phase even though it might be the same construction crew building each phase ? And what of suppliers, every time the construction company goes to the local builder merchants and orders up more materials do you call that jobs created there ? No doubt the local economy will gain but lets have some honesty in how that's assessed, ie. the supposed development value of a course that cost c. £7m to build.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Niall,

I take as dim of a view of these courses as just about anyone here but that's just plain silly.  Whether a job is created or saved it's one and the same.  People need work to keep their jobs as well.

[Brian_Ewen]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/24/aberdeen-happiest-place-scotland

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - Sand Hills is a private members club so there's no relevance there.

I think there is.
In order to play Sand Hills you have to spend a pretty penny on travel, that cost shouldn't go unnoticed.

Did Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes charge the same as Pebble Beach?

Mark, I can't believe you'd ask that question.

Do you know what Dick Youngscap paid for each acre at Sand Hills ?
Do you know what his "All-In" costs were ?  2,000,000 ?
Do you know the enormous price the current owners paid for Pebble Beach ?
Hundreds of millions.
Don't you think the investors at Sand Hills and Pebble Beach, both entitled to recapture their investment, are going to price their product accordingly  ?

I believe not. Shadow Creek as I understand it was built mainly to cater for the gaming market in Las Vegas, a rather unique set of circumstances and not really market driven pricing.

Ahhh, but it was market driven pricing, Steve Wynn was just ahead of the curve.
  
I also do not believe I can pay a greenfee at CPC, Shinnecock or ANGC if I can I'd be delighted to have a game and pay your greenfee as well.
Just because someone else pays for you doesn't mean that the cost of the round is irrelevant.
Unaccompanied green fees at Shinnecock are $ 400, no cart, no caddy included.
Now what do you think ?

I really do have nothing against Trump as a businessman and owner of golf courses. I do object to the bully boy tactics used at the site. Cutting off people's water supply, building 30' banks of earth in front of residents properties and having a small army of security guards monitoring residents. For those reasons and those reasons alone I hope the project fails to make him a penny.

Mark, to be honest, I don't know what's fact and what's fiction at that site.
So, I can neither agree nor disagree with you.
I do know, that like him or not, it's doubtful that anyone else could have built that golf course.

As to security guards monitoring a site, while the circumstances may be different, other well regarded courses have hired security forces to protect their site and prevent environmental extremists from entering the property and planting evidence that could result in closing the site down.

It's not a one way street with only the owners/developers being the "evil" party.

When I play in Scotland I'm a tourist so I'm not using any national bias in my earlier statement.

That's a little bit of a stretch, even for a barrister.
You do live in the U.K. don't you ?

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat - go easy on the Saturday night scotch.

Sand Hills is a private members club, this debate is about green fees, unless they allow unaccompanied play the owners costs are totally irrelevant.

OK let's try a different tack that you may understand. I move to Napa and spend $10m on some lovely land, plant some vines, spend another million on wine making technology and a good whack on a hiring a couple of wine experts. Give it 2 years, as I need to start recouping some of my investment, bottle 1000 cases of wine and sell them off. We'd better invite a few tasters who say its not bad but give the vines 5 years and they'll produce some good wine possibly top level stuff. So what's my pricing? Top level Napa with 20 successful vintages behind it and plenty of maturing potential, $400 a bottle? OK so this product maybe good (one day) and I have a big investment to recoup, I'll charge $425 a bottle. How well do you think they will sell?

Good on Shinnecock for allowing green fee play, next time I'm at National we'll have that game. How early do we need to book a time.

So I live on the south east tip of England but I'm not a tourist in Scotland. By your reckoning all the Americans visiting Florida or California are locals not tourist travel, even if they come from Alaska. Tourist - "traveling to and staying in places outside their usual environment for not more than one consecutive year for leisure, business and other purposes".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - go easy on the Saturday night scotch.

Mark, I've Never been a scotch drinker.
Never been a drinker other than socially, on occassion.

Sand Hills is a private members club, this debate is about green fees, unless they allow unaccompanied play the owners costs are totally irrelevant.
You don't think that guests play for free do you ?

OK let's try a different tack that you may understand. I move to Napa and spend $10m on some lovely land, plant some vines, spend another million on wine making technology and a good whack on a hiring a couple of wine experts. Give it 2 years, as I need to start recouping some of my investment, bottle 1000 cases of wine and sell them off. We'd better invite a few tasters who say its not bad but give the vines 5 years and they'll produce some good wine possibly top level stuff. So what's my pricing? Top level Napa with 20 successful vintages behind it and plenty of maturing potential, $400 a bottle? OK so this product maybe good (one day) and I have a big investment to recoup, I'll charge $425 a bottle. How well do you think they will sell?

The analogy you presented is so seriously flawed that it's irrelevant.

Your numbers are predisposed to fit your analogy and your product is a small package easily transported and exported from the physical site.
In addition, your costs to bring your product to market pale in comparison to the costs to bring the specific product being discussed to market.

Pebble Beach has fared quite well, with tee times booked a year or more in advance, so someone out there is willing to travel and pay the costs to use the product.

Good on Shinnecock for allowing green fee play, next time I'm at National we'll have that game. How early do we need to book a time.
NGLA's aren't much lower.

So I live on the south east tip of England but I'm not a tourist in Scotland.
By your reckoning all the Americans visiting Florida or California are locals not tourist travel, even if they come from Alaska.

Tourist - "traveling to and staying in places outside their usual environment for not more than one consecutive year for leisure, business and other purposes".

So, I guess, when I drive down the NJ Turnpike to Philadelphia, I'm a tourist, just like you are when you drive up to play Trump