[Mac Plumart]

During my round of golf today at The 'Mont, a fellow GCA'er and I had a discussion about golf courses (surprise, surprise).

He mentioned to me that although he liked a few of the holes at NGLA more than any hole at Shinnecock, but he liked Shinnecock more.  He equated it to being more of a start to finish masterpiece, like a great symphony.  Another masterpiece/symphony he mentioned was Sand Hills. 

Frankly, I agree with the premise that great golf courses are much more than the sum of the parts and simple hole by hole analysis misses this total package aspect.  Like a great piece of music, you will be taken on a journey, your feelings and emotions will be engaged, and in the end you will have been totally engulfed in the experience with all of it being crucial in its time and place to the entire adventure.

Like an analysis of a book or a movie, the totality of a golf course is what needs to be considered.  Do you ask someone what their favorite chapter of a book was...or do you ask what was their favorite book?  When you think of your favorite movie, do you think which movie had the best number of scenes or do you think of the entirety of the movie and, therefore, how the scenes fit together and how they were sequenced to tell the whole story? 

I'm a whole story/movie guy.  And I look at golf courses in their entirety.  I like to listen/hear/experience the entire symphony.

And like my friend, Sand Hills and Shinnecock are certainly two of the best.

Do you agree?  If so, what are your favorite symphonies? 

[Mark Saltzman]

Mac, I always find this topic interesting.  I have talked with several GCAers and ex-GCAers whose opinion I'm sure you trust and to a man they discuss the importance of flow.

I have to admit, flow is just something that has never resonated with me.  I consider National the most interesting golf course I have ever played.  Shot after shot I was challenged/forced/required to THINK.  I had to / could hit about every shot I could imagine.  Maybe this equates to flow, I don't know.

But the ebb and flow -- the rising and falling -- the 'entirety' of a golf course -- I just never completely got it. 

I accept that there are many whose level of analysis is beyond mine.  Maybe one day I'll get it.  One thing is for certain, National, Shinnecock, and Sand Hills ALL kept me captivated by requiring a great variety of shots.

A question -- this concept of flow or symphony, is it something obvious to you as you play a course or only something you recognize on subsequent analysis?

[Bart Bradley]

Mac:

I agree with this point of view.  I think Ran's hole-hole match play system fails miserably because it fails to evaluate exactly what your are discussing.  Basically, I believe that Routing is the symphony:  the ebb, the flow, the connections between parts, the balance, the crescendo...

Best examples, that you haven't mentioned, where routing producing something even better than the individual parts that I have seen are Pebble Beach and Barnbougle Dunes.

Bart

[Yancey_Beamer]

Mac,
I have always felt that great courses play like a symphony.I first had this impression at Pebble Beach..

[Mac Plumart]

Yancey...  I've yet to play Pebble, I really look forward to it.

Bart...I think you are absolutely correct regarding routing.

Mark...yes, this flow, feeling, vibe is apparent to me from the first play through the 25th.  And to be clear, NGLA evoked that feeling in me.  My initial post was not meant to bash NGLA in the slightest...as it is one of the worlds great symphonies in my mind.

Others that have not been mentioned so far are The Old Course, The Golf Club, Pinehurst 2, and Muirfield. Others may agree, or disagree, but the composition of those courses are essentially perfect in my eyes.

[Mark Pearce]

Mac,

As is so often the case the first course that came to my mind was Muirfield.  TOC wasn't far behind.  Royal Dornoch is another.

And yes, you are spot on.  The overall experience is far more than the sum of 18 individual holes. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

ONe of the courses mentioned on here put me out starting on 10 on my own ball in the AM and 1 in foursomes inthe PM.


It's why I struggle to remember it, I have no sense of it's flow.


However I think the metaphor is a little strained. I can imagine hugely enjoying The Addinton if I played it starting on 5 as orignally concieved, but there's no Symphony I'd enjoy starting with the second movement and finishing with the first.

[Sean_A]

I relate well flowing courses better to albums.  Few bands put together albums flowing as a song would do better than Pink Floyd and that may be what I liken New Zealand to.  Sort of a low hum comfort which while not hitting high points (literally and figuratively) does move well through the landscape.  

Most of the time, courses, just like albums, have a hitch which doesn't mean they aren't great, but nevertheless does leave one slightly wanting during moments.  I would like to see courses more along the lines of Blue Valentine.  A rumbling masterpiece which gets off to a very rocky start with Somewhere; a daring if slightly misguided style of cover.  After that, its all hands on deck for a ride which never has a dull or overly introspective moment.  I am not sure if I have come across the golf course of Blue Valentine.  Usually, courses tend to have their weakness in the books rather than the bookends of 1 & 18.  Perhaps Formby is the best example I can come up with, though I like its opening three holes much more than Somewhere.  

Another course along the lines of a Pink Floyd album is Little Aston.  The course does have a slight skip in moving off the original park for three holes, but the holes themselves are a positive addition to the course and incredibly varied as a threesome - yet one KNOWS he is not on original land.  

Another course which has a wonderful flow is Brora.  #

I too dislike starting on the wrong 9 unless it makes walking sense.  I struggle to get the mental picture of New Zealand in my head because of how many times we have gone off the 6th.  It also means the course finishes with a par 3.  On the other hand starting on 6 is a bit more of a friendly handshake than 1 an 2. 

Ciao  

[Adam Clayman]

Mark Saltzman,
 Age and/or experience might be a factor in being able to determine these finer points. I might suggest you forego thinking, and start feeling your way around a property. That might entail you playing without your camera, thinking about score, or, looking to know exact yardages. That last one should start you down the road to feeling more than thinking. Since you are a good player, I might also suggest you think about the placement of a hole you consider weak. Try and identify sequences, where they fall and how they factor into the course.

Not all very good, to great courses reveal all of their flow on an initial visit. But, there's usually a pretty big hint, somewhere.

And I agree whoever said starting on a hole other than the 1st, makes almost impossible to feel (or remember).

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I would think that Cypress Point passes both tests - spectacular individual holes and something even more special when you sum the individual parts. Cypress Point is to me an amazing symphony...

The symphony begins gently and eases one into the round.  The first hole is a nice start - the first tee is certainly intimate and unique. A little uncomfortable given the fact you hit over a hedge and the road you just drive in on - but once off the tee, the hole gracefully moves one into the day.

The holes move effortlessly in and out of the forest and up and down the dunes.  The routing is unique and varied - and keeps you off balance just a bit. Back to back par 5's and then back to back short par 4's. #8 and #9 are high point in the middle of the composition.

The course begins its crescendo with #14 followed by the walk over Seventeen Mile Drive again to a amazing trio of holes - all stand-outs on their own, but together perhaps one of the finest stretches on golf.

#18 brings you home to where the entire experience started.  To me, Cypress Point is the finest symphony in golf...

[Mac Plumart]

I might suggest you forego thinking, and start feeling your way around a property

Tom Paul said something very similar to me a few years ago.  He said focus on how a course makes you feel and then try to figure out why it made you feel that way.

Good advice, Adam.

[Eric Smith]

Do thinking and feeling have to be mutually exclusive?

Try that on the ladies...

[Dan Herrmann]

Mac - Agree 100%. 

My only nit is when people include stuff like clubhouses, restaurants, etc. when they judge a golf course.

[Mac Plumart]

Dan, yes.  I'm talking about the golf course only.  There are cool clubs and certain aspects of a club can enhance a day spent there.  But I'm talking about putting your tee in the ground on the first tee and playing the game of golf and what occurs during that time only.

[Mike Hogan]

I think Bandon Dunes would qualify as a symphony. The routing might be a little off but the holes individually are great.
The stretched from 4-6  gets you in the mood and 15-17 are the crescendo.
Playing a round at Bandon reminds me of listening to a good album or symphony.

[Mac Plumart]

I agree, Mike.  The closing stretch at Bandon Dunes is a great crescendo. 

[Joe Leenheer]

Does anyone consider scoring in their determination as to if a course "flows".

I always look at courses in sets of 3 holes and 6 holes.  (example first 3, middle 6, last three or 6, etc.) and how "score-able" each set is.

If a course were a symphony to me, the more difficult holes would sound more allegro.

The easier, more playable holes being more adagio.

EXAMPLE...Pebble starts out smooth...then picks up around #4...keeps pumping through #10....then smooths out for a bit setting up the big finish with 17 & 18.

Maybe course flow is much like a ones personal preference in music.  To each their own.

[Connor Dougherty]

This is one of the critical elements of landscape architecture, which is why I believe that golf architecture is an extension of landscape architecture. It gives golf a spiritual element in a sense, and connects everything together.

Call me crazy, but I don't think Pebble Beach fully accomplishes it. Going up the hill to the 14th almost seems like a sudden jolt toward the homes. All of the energy that Pebble Beach builds up over the course of the previous holes is gone. I believe most people don't realize it because they know that 17 and 18 are ahead of them, and 16 is a great hole in its own right.

This is probably the reason I want to see Cypress Point the most of any course (forget playing it, just seeing it would be incredible). IMO, courses built in one environment have an easier time finding a symphony. But the way people talk about Cypress dancing between the wooded areas, the sand dunes, and the cliffs, and it just sounds magical. Sure, 18 does turn inland and people call it anticlimactic, but I've heard a few people say they like the hole, so I'll wait to form an opinion on that.

[Adam Clayman]

Do thinking and feeling have to be mutually exclusive? I'm not sure...

Brian, My suggestion was to Mark because he expressed difficulty in feeling the symphony. Clearly Mark thinks his way around a golf course.

So the answer is ... Yes, they can be mutually exclusive, depending on individual.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Sure, 18 does turn inland and people call it anticlimactic, but I've heard a few people say they like the hole, so I'll wait to form an opinion on that.

I am sure many will disagree with me and I understand the arguments, but #18 didn't bother me and I actually liked it.  I don't know how one routes a course back to the clubhouse in any way at Cypress Point that isn't anticlimactic.

Any hole that turns inland after #15, #16, and #17 is bound to disappoint many and leave others wanting more - but it is a fine hole with perhaps one of the more demanding second shots on the course.

I can certainly see why many don't like it - it is a bit disorientating for the first time player and certainly very difficult for the lucky few who get to play it frequently. It takes one away from the ocean and up a hill woven through giant trees - it certainly was the most claustrophobic hole on the course to me, but it was in its own way majestic...

[Bob_Huntley]

Sure, 18 does turn inland and people call it anticlimactic, but I've heard a few people say they like the hole, so I'll wait to form an opinion on that.

I am sure many will disagree with me and I understand the arguments, but #18 didn't bother me and I actually liked it.  I don't know how one routes a course back to the clubhouse in any way at Cypress Point that isn't anticlimactic.

Any hole that turns inland after #15, #16, and #17 is bound to disappoint many and leave others wanting more - but it is a fine hole with perhaps one of the more demanding second shots on the course.

I can certainly see why many don't like it - it is a bit disorientating for the first time player and certainly very difficult for the lucky few who get to play it frequently. It takes one away from the ocean and up a hill woven through giant trees - it certainly was the most claustrophobic hole on the course to me, but it was in its own way majestic...

If the 18th was on a publinx with a twenty dollar green fee it would be considered bizarre and in the UK, daft.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()