[Frank M]

Funny, I associate the terms "line of charm" and "line of instinct" with a sort of golf elitism that benefits no one. Why not call them by what they are, the more ideal or better line to the hole and the straight line to the hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Funny....I associate the terms "line of charm" and "line of instinct" with a sort of golf elitism that benefits no one. 

That's probably because you may not be well read.

Why not call them by what tthey are...the more ideal or better line to the hole and the straight line to the hole.

Because that's not what the architect who coined/popularized the phrases called them.

[Frank M]

Because I am not well read?

[Ronald Montesano]

The placement of "perhaps" makes the difference.

Marco, when I think of "charm," I think of bewitchment, as in being charmed away from the logical and the practical. I think of being misled, rather than being shown the proper way of things. That is why the line of charm designation suggested trickery to me.

I'm not questioning your understanding and use of them, but I wonder if they were incorrectly defined from the outset. I do understand that instinctual response/decision-making isn't always proper. I suspect that I'm in need of a lingo-semantic review.

[Mark Saltzman]

Stanley, I completely agree with your first paragraph and I often used the term incorrectly before Tommy corrected me.

Frank, I don't know what using these terms or not has to do with growing the game. The terms Line of Charm and Line of Instinct convey much more information than the three word sentences you used to describe them. Like saying a green is 'redan-like,' for those that understand the term a lot of information is contained without further explanation.

[Frank M]

Good tour.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

What's the matter with you ?

Evidently you don't understand that if you're well versed, familiar with or somewhat educated regarding golf course architecture, you're an elitist.

Get with the program, uou need to lower the bar and cater to the lowest common denominator when posting on GCA.com

[Frank M]

Patrick, thank you for so clearly stating your position on the matter. I will have to agree to disagree.

[Mark Saltzman]

Pat, re #7, what are your thoughts on (1) the trees near the tee and (2) the depth of the fairway bunkering on the outside of the dogleg?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, re #7, what are your thoughts on (1) the trees near the tee and (2) the depth of the fairway bunkering on the outside of the dogleg?

Mark,

This week the hole played into a good north wind, so I was hitting driver - 3-wood and driver - 2-iron every time.

The prevailing wind is usually at your back.

It's a penal hole.

And, at one time, there was a bunker immediately behind the green.

I don't mind the trees off the tee, I've learned the hard way not to aim out over the lake and try to draw/hook the ball back into play, even with a wind over/behind my right shoulder

I think the fairway bunkers on # 7 are too difficult, but, they are in keeping with the fairway bunkers throughout the golf course.

I look at the hole as a really challenging par 4, but, if I make a 5, I'm not unhappy.

# 7 is really # 14 on steroids.

Today I played with a 60 year old guy who started out wild off the tee and then, on # 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 drove it down the middle over 300 yards, and, he's got a good short game.  For years I've tried to get him to slow down his backswing, which is so fast that he throws himself off balance and hits it crooked, but, when he slows down, he's pretty impressive.

On # 7 today, he drove it in the middle of the 8th fairway, and, he was aiming at the middle of the 7th fairway.

[Mark Saltzman]

The 10th hole is a long par-4 (alternate tees allow this to be played as a par-5 on the Members Scorecard).  Wilson showed more restraint with his fairway bunkering on the 10th with only a pair of shallow bunkers guarding the inside of the dogleg.  Perfect mowing lines and fairway contouring combine to reward golfers that take the bold line.

Another angled green at the 10th. The shortest approach will always be from the left, but back/left pins are much easier accessed from the right.




Following the longest par-4 on the course, the 11th is the longest par-3 on the course, though this hole should be downwind.  While the pair of par-3s on the front 9 were similar, the two on the back 9 could not be more different.  The 11th features a massive green (the largest on the course?) and imposing bunkers on the right.  Firm collars + the tilt of the green combine to repel shots that are bailed out away from the green.  Misses left face a tricky pitch over a false-front.






The 12th is somewhat forgettable, but it once played as a (short?) par-5 and in that form the water 50 yards short of the green would have been a more interesting feature.  The left-to-right wind makes the approach to the right-to-left angled green that much more challenging.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

YIKES.

The 12th is somewhat forgettable ? ? ?

Tell me that someone broke into your computer and is posting on GCA.com 

Clearly you didn't play it into the prevailing wind.

It's a great hole, requiring a good drive and a superior approach.
Should you fail at either, a spectacular recovery will be required.

YIKES.

You've got to come back and play it with me.

[Mark Saltzman]

Patrick,

Another very knowledgeable poster made a very similar comment to yours.

Let's call it a failing from seeing the hole only once (though I did play it with a strong prevailing wind).

I hit a very good drive, left of the tree.  After that, a good six-iron, drawing against the wind left a 20 foot birdie putt.  What's so difficult?  

How in play is the water from the tee?  I recall, after the good drive I hit, being only in-line with the start of the water on the left?

Also, I understand the new tree is a restoration of an old tree.  Do you like this feature on this hole?  Does a lengthy par-4 that plays into the wind need a centreline hazard of this kind?

Do you think the hole, particularly with the placement of the crossing water hazard short of the green, played better as a short par-5?

Ps. I'd love to come back and play with you.  Maybe we can arrange a home and home when I'm in Florida next.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Remind me again, which tees did you play from ?

The further back you go, the less likely you are to hit it into the water on the left off the tee.

The tree in the fairway on # 12 is the club's logo and the fairway is very generous and the tree really isn't that invasive to play, both off the tee and on the approach.  I like it because it's different.  If it was a bunker would you declare it a great bottle hole ?

I never played it as a par 5, but, I'd have to debit my drive the difference in yardage from the old par 5 tee and see how it plays from there.  The prevailing wind in your face is such an enormous factor and there's not that much room between the end of the water and the start of the green, and that area, between the water and green is steeply sloped toward the water.
Lots of room to bail out right at the green though.

[Mark Saltzman]

Blue tees (Championship Course).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

On # 12, from the Blue Tees, the water on the left is in play.
As you move back to the Silver and Gold tees, it gets distanced from the golfer's drive, but, is still in play for the long driver if the wind isn't up.

What goes mostly unappreciated on the 12th is the location of the hole.
There are some really, really neat hole locations, especially considering the bunker pattern, configuration and slope of the green.

Par is a really good score.

After playing three long holes, including # 12, you now play three of the shortest holes around, but, those three short holes have claimed more victims, especially those who look at the scorecard and think, "easy birdie holes".  I've seen some great rounds come undone on # 13, 14 and 15.

[Mark Saltzman]

The 13th starts my favorite three-hole stretch at Pine Tree and Mike Nuzzo would be pleased to see the holes are routed in a triangle (sort of).  Based on yardage alone, 13-15 looks like a great opportunity to score, but precision is demanded and small mistakes can result in bogey or worse.

The 13th is somewhat innocuous when the wind is down, especially when playing to a front-pin.  But, the predominant wind direction plays across this hole from left-to-right and the lofted approach of a short-iron especially subject to its strength.  What is not obvious from the tee is that the angled green stretches from 40 yards and at all distances is a shallow and elusive target.








The 14th is a reverse of the 7th though it plays much shorter.  At both the 7th and 14th anti-strategic bunkering protect the outside of the dogleg and there is a significant reward for challenging the water.




Almost a replica of the 13th green, the 14th green is also long, shallow and angled from front-left to back-right.  Approaches from the right side of the fairway, near the fairway bunkering, are near impossible when the hole plays down wind.






The 15th plays straightaway and straight into the wind.




The 15th green is similar to the 2nd and 6th greens in that it falls off in several places -- front-left, front-right...




Back-left and back:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

13, 14 and 15 are amongst my favorite holes as well.

A great collection of very short holes where the prevailing direction of the wind contributes to the challenge without creating an overly penal challenge.

What's neat about those three short holes is how dramatically play changes when the wind is from the North, West or East.

Those three holes are the calm before the storm and can create a false sense of security as the golfer prepares to play #'s 16, 17 and 18.

[Carter Hindes]

Tony,

The course looks great!  I keep saying I am going to make the trip, after seeing the pics following the work you did this summer I am even more eager to hop on a plane.  How much work did you guys actually do to the bunkers?  Glad that Brent is coming out there to work for you.  Let me know if you have any problems with him, I know where he lives! 

[Michael Ryan]

I was waiting for this photo tour to reach the back nine before jumping in with my comments/experience re: Pine Tree.  I had the great pleasure to spend a few winters at Pine Tree while attending college in nearby Boca Raton.  First as a caddy and then a season in the bagroom working under the "infamous" caddymaster/starter Charlie.  I played Pine Tree many times as well as had the chance to caddy for some very good players-the back nine has some of the best "flow" you will see in my opinion.  Both the change in direction contained in three hole groups (10-12, 13-15 and 16-18, all playing at about 3 points of the compass) to the shot value's moving from length to finesse back to length. 

Many years after playing Pine Tree I played Merion for the first time and while I'm not looking to compare the golf courses, the change in shot value as Merion moves from a beginning of par 5's, strong par 4's to the finesse of holes like 7, 8, 11 and 13 to ending with that great stretch made me recall how Pine Tree's back nine did a similar thing. 

Pine Tree is an absolute gem in an area that doesn't usually excite me when it comes to quality of golf courses.

Mike

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony,

The course looks great!  I keep saying I am going to make the trip, after seeing the pics following the work you did this summer I am even more eager to hop on a plane.  How much work did you guys actually do to the bunkers?  Glad that Brent is coming out there to work for you.  Let me know if you have any problems with him, I know where he lives! 

Carter,
  The bunker project because the monster of the project. As you know, Bobby Weed renovated the course in 2005 and a majority of the membership was never really happy with the toothy, jagged edge type bunkers that were built. Granted, judging by 1962 photos, the 2005 bunker work was not awful initially, but the summer rains, edging, members walking in and out of bunkers tongues really destroyed them. I was also instructed numerous times to “cut out that finger/tooth.”
  Carter, we removed 4-5’ around every bunker, some more.  We reestablish/rebuilt the edges using loam and sodded the edges with 419, using 4 staples in each piece. Anywhere that we had bunker complexes, all the turf in between bunkers was regrassed, also. Bunkers that tied into the collar or fairway, we sodded all the way to the tifeagle or the celebration.  We laid around 60 truck loads of sod, dating back to April, where we began working on bunkers. That’s that just over 10 acres of sod laid by our staff or 3 trucks/week.  The previous bunkers had 419/common/tifsport edges and even a few celebration edges. (Id guess they needed to fix a bunker and that was all the sod they had?) We shortened up some “fingers” that seems to always be used for entering and exiting bunkers, but we rounded up and uniformed a lot of the bunker lines to be cleaner.
  We will have to adjust a few next summer, but all and all, MUCH better than before. Not sure I’d choose to take on 130 bunkers in house again, though.

[Mark Saltzman]

The 16th begins the final 3-hole triangle, though no matter the wind direction these three holes make for an unrelenting finishing stretch.  The 16th stretches to a devilish 666 yards and plays from a 100 yard long (?) runway tee.






While the 16th tee shot is demanding, bunkered on both sides of the fairway (and with a hidden stream waiting to catch those golfers that cut the left side too closely).




The second shot is a simple one, though perhaps this is fitting as few golfers will choose to hit less than 3-wood.  The green is very large and gently contoured, falling off front-left and split down its centre by a subtle spine.  Approaches from the right will be played over this Oakmontian bunker.




The 17th is straightaway and normally plays into the wind making it a real challenge.  Even without the wind, a fascinating green will keep golfers interested.






Finally a hole where the predominant wind should assist with the playing of the hole.  As at the 16th, the Line of Instinct is broken by a penal bunker, which should not be challenged.  A tee shot aimed at the bunkering along the left side of the hole should be blown back to the centre of the fairway by the wind.




One final angled green -- one of the least contoured greens on the course -- awaits the golfer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Thanks again for the photo tour.

# 17 was said to be Snead's favorite hole, with it's upside down pear shaped green flanked by bunkers.

# 16 is a par 5 where you just can't miss a shot or hit a marginal shot.  
Even down wind it demands three solid shots.

You can't play it safe or limp in if you have a lead, you have to play strong to the end.

Anthony,

Interesting comment about the fingers in the bunkers.

I liked the fingers, but I thought that their texture was all wrong.
Balls hit into them became mostly unmanageable for the membership.
Had the grass been maintained differently, I wonder if you would have received as many, if any negative comments.

Those fingers were a Wilson trademark.
Bob Von Hagge told me that he adopted that same style from Wilson.

Mike,

I remember our rounds at Pine Tree and our many discussions about golf, golf course architecture and some characters that we knew, like Steve W.

Hope all is well

[Terry Lavin]

Country club guys always whine about ragged bunker edging and native grasses. More's the pity. Pine Tree is a big, brawny flat Florida gem. Better yet, it's a great CLUB. That's the most meaningful distinction of all. Great guys, very little artifice.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Terry,

This was far more than "ragged" bunker edging.

It was deep, difficult rough where reasonable extrication was nearly impossible due to both the height and density of the grass and the inability to take a stance due to its location.

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