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Doug Ralston

Dick Wilson's work.
« on: August 30, 2006, 12:55:35 PM »
I played an obscure course on Kentucky [I know, I know, they ALL are :)] the other day, called Doe Valley. I have heard that it had conditioning probs for years, but the [new?] owners had put it into good shape. They had. The course was a very nice, clean layout and I was pleased to have paid $25 to play such quality.

I found the course was designed by Dick Wilson. I knew he had designed several excellent courses about the Country, but never knew we had one till now.

Who else has played some of his courses? Thoughts on the quality of his work?

Doug

Chris_Blakely

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 01:15:14 PM »
Doug,

Is the course designed by Dick Wilson or Dick Watson?  The Course website and the Kentucky Golf Links website list Richard Watson as the architect?  Is this simply a mistake??

Thanks,
Chris

Doug Ralston

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 02:10:36 PM »
Chris;

Sorry to hear that the course made such a mistake and that GKL [best State Courses website in USA, IMHO] missed it. It WAS Dick Wilson!

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/dick-wilson.html

Also look at golfcourse.com. Go to the advanced search function, and ask for architect Dick Wilson.

Of could both these sources be wrong. Now i am getting uncertain. Can someone come with another list of all Wilson's courses? These are the ones I depended upon.

Doug

Andy Scanlon

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 05:24:08 PM »
Doug:

I believe Dick Wilson got his start working for William Flynn and Howard Toomey as part of their construction crew.  As you mention, he has designed numerous courses around the country including Deepdale, Bay Hill, Doral Blue, Pine Tree, La Costa North & South courses and the Cog Hill #3 -- no slouch any of them.   Though I don't know the full story, I also believe Wilson made (erroneous) claims about having actually designed Shinnecock Hills...Wayne Morrison or TEPaul can probably provide some additional info about his claims if they see this thread.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2006, 05:24:33 PM by Andy Scanlon »
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

wsmorrison

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 05:51:28 PM »
Dick Wilson (1904-1965) did make claims to designing Shinnecock Hills while working for Flynn.  He made these claims when he returned sometime after Flynn's death (around 1961?) to do some work on Shinnecock bunkers.  He was second in charge on a site under either Wm Gordon or Red Lawrence.

Doug,

Richard Watson was born in 1932 so their age difference helps figure things out.  If true as written in The Architects of Golf that Watson built the course in 1973, it couldn't have had any input by Dick Wilson.

Doug Ralston

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2006, 06:17:09 PM »
Wayne;

Thanks. I looked it up. You are correct. >looks like BOTH sources I had were wrong. Unless, of course, Watson was channeling Wilson's spirit.

Good little course though, whomever had the ideas.

Doug

Greg Tallman

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2006, 06:46:28 PM »
Wilson was the original designer of Laurel Valley outside of Pittsburgh. the course has undergone revisions by Palmer et al and remains an excellent course. Still perhaps my favorite course.

 

Lou_Duran

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2006, 07:03:12 PM »
NCR- South, a course I've always enjoyed playing, full of options, and a lot of fun with it is firm and fast (to bring out the full efffect of its devilish greens and deep bunkers).

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2006, 10:17:10 PM »
I think Dick Wilson's work has been under-rated.

Let's not forget the work he did at the 18th at Seminole.

He also produced assistants who went on to become lead designers as well, Joe Lee and Robert Von Hagge.

Jim Nugent

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2006, 05:24:50 AM »
Wilson did W. Palm Beach CC, which I liked when I was 15 years old.  

Glenn Spencer

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2006, 09:12:39 AM »
Ralston doesn't know what course he is playing or who designed it. ;D  Hopefully, he actually is in Kentucky. Still, a good thread though. I think Mucci is right, he is pretty underrated for the most part. I know that I have played 3, I think it is more, Deepdale, Coldstream and I think his best course, NCR. Although, I haven't played Cog Hill, I would be surprised if NCR wasn't his best course to me, looking at his others. Overall, the man has a nice list of courses to his name. Not the quirkiest of courses, but you never see much in the way of stupid at his joints. Never mind, I just saw Doral, I forgot I played that. That course sucks, don't know what he is actually responsible for though.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 09:14:42 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Mark Saltzman

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 10:32:30 AM »
Does anyone know Wilson's inspiration for the grass islands in several of his bunkers. The ones on 16 at Pine Tree are loosely similar to the church pews at Oakmont, but the others (on 4 and 13) are more random. Looking at historic aerials of Doral, they were originally there as well.

Was this / is this common in Wilson's work and what is their purpose?

Also, is Pine Tree the most intact piece of Wilson's work? Comparing a 1968 aerial to a 2011 aerial shows the club's dedication to maintaining its history.

Mark Smolens

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 05:47:09 PM »
Isn't there a Dick Wilson course in Sarasota, Longboat Key Club? I played there once and was very much reminded of Cog Hill #4, another Wilson design.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 06:37:58 PM »
Mark,

Pine Tree is committed to preserving Wilson's work.

There have been some changes, mostly to # 12 and # 10 due to land/boundary issues with a few neighbors, where it was discovered that the back of the 12th tee wasn't on Pine Tree property, thus the hole was converted to a par 4, and to counterbalance par, back to 72 from 71, a new tee was installed to the back left of # 10 making it a par 5.

As I stated previously, I think his work is underrated and unfortunately, like many deceased architects, less and less of their originals seems to survive the modernization trend.

Mark Saltzman

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 07:04:57 PM »
Patrick, interesting re #12.  How long did the hole play originally? I suppose that means you walked right from 11 green to get to 12 tee?

I am planning on starting a photo thread on Pine Tree in the next day or so.  I hope you will contribute to it.

Do you have any thoughts re the grass islands?

Bart Bradley

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 07:20:04 PM »
Patrick, interesting re #12.  How long did the hole play originally? I suppose that means you walked right from 11 green to get to 12 tee?

I am planning on starting a photo thread on Pine Tree in the next day or so.  I hope you will contribute to it.

Do you have any thoughts re the grass islands?

Mark:

I played Pine Tree this past week and really enjoyed it.  A very well designed and presented course.  Are your pictures taken after the recent bunker re-build and regrassing?

Bart

Mark Saltzman

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 07:31:12 PM »
Bart, yes, they're from yesterday. Are you still around?

Bart Bradley

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 07:55:55 PM »
Bart, yes, they're from yesterday. Are you still around?

Mark:

Sadly, no.  I have been back home since Sunday night...send me a PM and tell me where else you are playing.

Bart

Randy Thompson

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 09:08:03 PM »
There is a good track in Caracas, Venezuela called Lagunita Country Club that was designed by Dick Wilson and Joe Lee was on site construction coordinator. They hosted two world cups in the past and I have been maintenance consulting there for the last three years, making visits every three months. Itīs finially coming together and in pretty good condition and next week they are hosting the South American team championship called Copa Los Andes. There is one bunker with two small islands that we just added a little sod to bring the grass back down to the base, they had lost shape over the years.





« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 09:24:22 PM by Randy Thompson »

Pete Balzer

Re:Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 09:09:07 PM »
NCR- South, a course I've always enjoyed playing, full of options, and a lot of fun with it is firm and fast (to bring out the full efffect of its devilish greens and deep bunkers).

NCR North is a tough, enjoyable course as well

Gary Slatter

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 10:09:55 PM »
I have liked Dick Wilson's work since 1968 when I first saw the LUCAYAN COUNTRY CLUB on Grand Bahama Island.  Wilson designed it with Craig Wood.   The EMERALD COURSE at King's Inn was also superb, also on GBI.  Over the years I've enjoyed every Wilson course, including many Wilson/Joe Lee courses.  I'm old enough to remember Bay Hill, Cog Hill and Doral from before they were "improved".

He worked with some legends, and many of his associates have one quite well.  He and Stanley Thompson would have been a fun pub night!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2012, 12:32:23 AM »

Patrick, interesting re #12.  How long did the hole play originally?

I'll try to get that info for you next week or when I can access the recent book that Pine Tree created.


I suppose that means you walked right from 11 green to get to 12 tee?

Yes, directly behind it, easy walk.


I am planning on starting a photo thread on Pine Tree in the next day or so.  I hope you will contribute to it.

I'll certainly try.


Do you have any thoughts re the grass islands?

I liked them so much that I introduced them at Boca Rio on the 9th, 16th and 18th holes.


Tim_Cronin

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2012, 01:31:45 AM »
According to the introductory brochure for the club, Pine Tree's 12th hole (No. 3 on the original plan, the nines were flipped before the course opened), was originally a 442-yard par 4 from the back (blue) tee, 420 from the white tee, 398 from the yellow tee, and 340 from the red tee. Remember, of course, that Wilson's long tees provided innumerable yardage combinations on the course. Today, it plays anywhere from 461 yards to 270.

The 10th hole (No. 1 originally), was listed as a par-5 at 498, 469, 430 and 400 yards. Today, it can play as a 4 or 5, and from 507 to 333 yards, depending on the tee used. Back left gives you a dogleg left and a carry over water off the tee, while the tee to the right brings a pair of bunkers on the left side into play for shorter hitters. Then comes a sparkling challenge on the second shot. You can lay up, but there's no bailout near the green, only trouble. A great hole.

But Pat's story about the lot owner, which is in the book, makes complete sense. The tee is diagonal to the course property line, and in the days when cows lived next door, could easily have been built too long, even if it wasn't in the original plan.

(Info from "Pine Tree at 50," by yours truly.)
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Tim Gavrich

Re: Dick Wilson's work.
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2012, 05:37:06 PM »
Pine Tree looks fantastic. I have, though, played the Mountain View course at Callaway Gardens Resort in Georgia, and I always loved playing that course. Always a great test from tee to green and the bunkering in particular takes center stage over the course of the round.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

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