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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 07:20:09 PM »
The 12th at Ballyneal is now known as "The "Skate park".  It's got a halfpipe and some other features, like a skate park.  That should go over as well or better than the other template at Ballyneal, The Dell.

John,

I really wish we would've had more time to discuss this last night.  I am both intrigued and excited for such an idea.   But as I quickly numerated, I think there are a couple issues to the business plan that warrant discussion.  I'll start with one.

How do you "get in?"  On all domestic projects, there is fierce competition due to the scarcity of work in the US right now.  I think it would be prohibitively difficult to convince enough towns/cities to embrace the idea to establish a "network" of courses.  However, the counterpoint to that would be superior product and ease of functionality.  I think the similarities between courses and construction would be a strong selling point.


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 08:03:26 PM »
John I love the idea and agree land cost in urban areas will be the problem. However given that there is no more fun golf course than a well done MCRaynor course. Fun being the operative word. To play 18 hole sin 2.5 to 3 hours on a fun tract is a beautiful thing. The maintenance is an issue too. Part of what makes mac course so fun are interesting well maintained greens. The more you dumb them down and cut maintenance the greater the risk of losing the good you are trying to get. I will quality this by saying I only played Oid Mac once. The scale was too large or grand with greens that were too large and too slow to be fun. It is a cool and in many way a great course but lost what made Mac Raynor special to me. The course would have been a great course to me if I was not expecting Macraynor. Ergo it was a disappointment in the final analysis. Also should not for full disclosure. I played the course on a perfect, balmy, 2 club wind day. I played well and had a great time with the guys I flew up with for the day. The negative was when I put my GCA hat on given I had watched the course from conception and had high expectations.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:10:04 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 08:15:22 PM »
Sounds like a good plan for whatever they are going to call the new WPA. Land costs won't be an issue, they can just re-distribute it for the greater good.

Plus, with all those people out of work, they might as well golf. Golf Stamps for those of the 25.3 million golfers who need them.

I'm hopeful today's political posturing was just that. Because Friday (and beyond) could get ugly if The President was serious.

What do you think he ran on when he won 332 electoral votes?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 08:36:10 PM »
Bill,
What I find interesting is a lot of those states that supplied him with 332 also supplied him with many GOP house members who were usually running on something completely different. What were those voters thinking? (now back to McRaynor, hopefully)

Donnie Beck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2012, 08:46:53 PM »
John,

I love the concept and had a similar idea a few years ago but I think you are going to have a difficult time keeping your price point where you want it. Golf course development is different from other industries by the simple fact that no two courses are the same. There are too many variables that influence costs. You are not making the same hamburger at every store. Achieving firm and fast in Philly is not the same as Northern California and definitely a whole lot different in Phoenix.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2012, 09:28:19 PM »
That's a very impressive post and some top-flight thinking, John -- and, as it goes against just about everything I feel and believe in and understand, I'm almost certain that you have a winning concept!!  Indeed, if CB Macdonald had been friends with municipal leaders and town councillors instead of wall street financiers and captains of industry, it might be precisely what America's golfing landscape would look like today. On the other hand, CBM wouldn't have become CBM if he'd been a man of the people instead of a well-heeled swell, and the great architects wouldn't have been great architects if what they'd worried about most was providing quality affordable golf to the masses.

Peter  
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 09:37:16 PM by PPallotta »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2012, 11:01:57 PM »
Bill,
What I find interesting is a lot of those states that supplied him with 332 also supplied him with many GOP house members who were usually running on something completely different. What were those voters thinking? (now back to McRaynor, hopefully)

It does make you stop and think, doesn't it!?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2012, 08:16:04 AM »
Bill,
What I find interesting is a lot of those states that supplied him with 332 also supplied him with many GOP house members who were usually running on something completely different. What were those voters thinking? (now back to McRaynor, hopefully)

Not so many voters really split their vote.  I read an analysis that the overall popular vote for the House of Representatives was 51% for the Democrats and 49% for the Republicans ... the # of seats is totally skewed because of gerrymandering the districts.  They have such good voter info on everybody now (literally block by block for all of America) that the state legislatures (which are still Republican-dominated) are able to lump as many Democrats as possible into one district so that Republicans win the three surrounding districts.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 08:28:33 AM »
Bill,
What I find interesting is a lot of those states that supplied him with 332 also supplied him with many GOP house members who were usually running on something completely different. What were those voters thinking? (now back to McRaynor, hopefully)

Not so many voters really split their vote.  I read an analysis that the overall popular vote for the House of Representatives was 51% for the Democrats and 49% for the Republicans ... the # of seats is totally skewed because of gerrymandering the districts.  They have such good voter info on everybody now (literally block by block for all of America) that the state legislatures (which are still Republican-dominated) are able to lump as many Democrats as possible into one district so that Republicans win the three surrounding districts.

Republicans picked up something like 8 new Governors... did they rig that also?

On topic, I doubt this will work too well in America unless you are into buying distressed golf courses and fixing them up. I don't see many new golf courses being built here.  Are we opening more courses than are closing yet?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 08:34:39 AM by Craig Van Egmond »

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2012, 08:51:58 AM »
I was thinking about more on this topic and I really think if executed properly it could become a fairly successful venture.

Another benefit behind the program would be potential "mass production" benefits.  Say irrigation, I don't know if this is possible, but since you know your course will be roughly x yard taking up x acreage, 5-10 systems could be purchased at discount.  Same with maintenance equipment, the course would need x amount of mowers and such.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2012, 09:02:57 AM »
John,

This business plan is being executed in Maine by Harris Golf.

http://www.harrisgolfonline.com/

The poster known as Mr Moore of Maine could tell us more. He knows I am a GCA snob, so he has not taken me to any of these courses on my visits.

Most of the courses seem to be takeovers of existing facilities.

Penobscot is probably highest on my list:


Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2012, 09:17:30 AM »
John Kirk

Brilliant, some constructive thought.  Geoff and I have discussed this many times.  Land is and isn't a problem.  There are many distressed golf courses that are about to close or should.  That land could be taken.  The golf management companies, PGA, Executive Committee of the USGA, and government entities have no clue to what you are talking about.  However there is one guy, Mike Davis, of the USGA who would comprehend immediately.
Corporate money combined with some $$ from the USGA would work.  Like Griffith Park in Los Angeles(George Thomas), an architect would donate their time or at least a reduced cost along with vendors and receive some tax break perhaps.  It would take the USGA to convince some governments to take over a course.  Today's local governments by and large detest golf.  To them they are only a mechanism to provide jobs for maintenance workers.  The courses are already there, they just need someone to redo them in the fashion to which you are suggesting.  I could list you 10 great municipal courses in the USA in probably 5 minutes that would be wonderful candidates.  Building new is also possible, but land, pricey.
Anyway, nice to see something laid out so convincingly.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2012, 12:12:20 PM »
I just skimmed through this.  John, the foundation of the plan is sound. A few caveats:

1. If this is proposed as a WPA type project there is good & bad with this:
  A. Good - The Federal gov'r is involved in the process to deal with taking of land (eminant domain) environmental permitting & financing - three very large hurdles to overcome for private investors
  B. The Federal gov't is involved - if all vendors, contactors & professionals are subject to MBW/WMBE gov't guidelines and Davis-Bacon wage issues, costs will double from your estimate. But the gov't is paying so it may not matter.

2. Assume a private model with government help to kick start the process (kick-start for the creation of jobs; a noble goal).  The gov't will want to exit the process once construction is complete.  The Federal gov't isn't very good at running and operating most things in general; they have no need to be in the golf business.  A mechanism for sale/leaseback of the assets or long term licensse/lease to private operators allows the gov't to not operate golf facilities.

3. if this is an all private model and the plan is to provide 25-50 courses, the project needs $125-$250 million.  The cost of that money will run each course between $350,000-$500,000 annually so they need to operate efficiently and profiably to service this debt.  This is achieveable for someone in the business of golf, just not someone who wants to "be in the golf business".

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2012, 07:19:57 PM »
Thanks for the conversation, everybody.

Whether or not to "dumb down" the greens is an interesting topic.  My plan says "greens sloped just enough to encourage strategic play", which overstates my perceived need for restraint.  Let me use two greens from Old Macdonald, as examples of greens I think are a bit too wild for mass consumption, #5 (Short) and #6 (Long).  #5 is very severe, with enormous contours.  If you hit the wrong quadrant, sometimes the best you can do is a twenty footer.  #6 green is perched above fairway grade, generally slopes away from the approach shot, and is filled with complex contours to boot.  The worry with greens like this is the consensus opinion of the local golfing clique, who sees it once or twice, and together they decide they don't want to come back.  This kind of happened at Stone Eagle, which took a few years to gain traction.  But that's a private course with relatively deep pockets, not a public course seeking quicker approval than that.

In the movie "Mozart", the young musician is brought to the court of the Austrian king.  The king, who admires and personally appreciates his young prodigy, registers the complaint from the public and Mozart's peer musician Salieri, that there are "too many notes" in Mozart's music.  Same concept.

I think if you had the chance to build a "Long" hole, you give the people Hell bunker and a sloped green, but the whole thing can't be as tough as Old Macdonald's version.  It's a very tough par with a neutral or north wind.  Every shot after the drive is hard.  I played St. Andrews #14 once, and it was slightly downwind, so the Hell bunker didn't really come into play.  I was two yards short of the green in two shots, but the pin must have been five feet above my ball, on a downslope.  I made par.

On the other hand, a big sloped green I think would appeal to many players is #15 at NGLA, the "Narrows" hole.  A steep but regular back to front slope.

Two other things that could offend a large percentage of golfers.  A huge, steep false front, like Sand Hills #1 and Crystal Downs #8, where a yard short means 60-80 yards on the nex shot.  Of course I'm mentioning two of the all-time greats.  Another thing is buried balls in the top of flashed bunker faces.  I imagine flashing the sand costs extra money, so maybe you stay away from this type of bunker presentation.

As we've discussed many times before, the designer can build steeper slopes and compensate with slower, and perhaps healthier putting surfaces.  The problem is almost everybody loves fast greens.  Seems nowadays most regions of the country can have fast greens within 2-3 years of planting the best new strain of grass.  Personally, I kind of like the slower greens, which are a lot less nerve wracking on short putts.  They allow you to put a nice solid rap on short putts, and discourage yippie behavior.

There have been several tribute courses built, like the Tour 18 in Houston.  I've never been there, but my sense is that hasn't been a wildly successful concept.  This is not much different, except the idea is not to excatly duplicate holes.  Also water hazards play a part in a typical tribute design.  And despite JK's argument for water hazards, I don't like them very much, unless they are a natural tributary of some sort. 

I will likely go back and tweak the plan, then repost it.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2012, 09:45:53 PM »
Mike Sweeney:

That is a beautiful routing that you reprinted.
I would hate to see something like that turned into a McRaynor.


Penobscot is probably highest on my list:



I actually spoke to the Harris Golf guys a few years ago (before the bust) when they were considering building a project from scratch.  They are probably glad they didn't; rehabbing old courses is a lot less expensive.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2012, 12:06:10 AM »
Gentlemen,

Common Ground has been mentioned in this thread but would High Pointe be an option to be given the Kirk treatment or is it just too distressed by now. It would seem to mr that High Pointe had a goodly number of the Kirk requirements as a start up model no?

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2012, 12:15:00 AM »
I'm thinking of a course with a single cut. Everything that's in play is basically the same. Like in the north some kind of bluegrass cut at 1/2 inch. If it doesn't get irrigation it goes brown.

Is this feasible?

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2012, 12:20:45 AM »
Colin,

It seems like it would be a candidate, but I don't think so, for general economic reasons.  First, there are a lot of courses in the Traverse City area, and second, I visited there for a few days this summer, and that side of town is pretty dead looking these days.  Traverse City looked pretty depressed economically.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2012, 08:13:36 AM »
Colin,

It seems like it would be a candidate, but I don't think so, for general economic reasons.  First, there are a lot of courses in the Traverse City area, and second, I visited there for a few days this summer, and that side of town is pretty dead looking these days.  Traverse City looked pretty depressed economically.

This is generally correct.  High Pointe is just on the wrong side of town, and a bit too far out of town, to get a lot of local play from families and kids.  And this market is really more about the tourists than the locals ... there are a couple of closer-in $40 public courses that take care of the locals.  That said, if I could acquire the property at a fire-sale price, instead of the $2.5 million the owner thinks the land is worth, I would refurbish it myself.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2012, 08:52:38 AM »

This is generally correct.  High Pointe is just on the wrong side of town, and a bit too far out of town, to get a lot of local play from families and kids.  And this market is really more about the tourists than the locals ... there are a couple of closer-in $40 public courses that take care of the locals.  That said, if I could acquire the property at a fire-sale price, instead of the $2.5 million the owner thinks the land is worth, I would refurbish it myself.

This is ripe for a GCA-funded Kickstarter project:

http://www.kickstarter.com/start?ref=home_start


"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2012, 09:05:20 AM »
It all sounds great to me except the homogenous template design concept.  I'm as much a fan of templates as just about anyone, but cookie cutter design will get you a plate full of stale cookies IMO.  Even if you did just have a bag of 25 templates to choose from, each property has it's own unique challenges of routing, drainage and how to best fit each template in with shaping etc.  You'd have to have a fairly large company put a good GCA on retainer to get an economy of scale and actual decent golf IMHO.  Cutting corners in any type of design is a dicey proposition at best.  I think I'd rather just look to buy up courses under foreclosure on a one-off basis and get advice from somebody who knows what the hell he's doing.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 09:10:00 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2012, 01:43:35 PM »
Jud,

I have no intention of undertaking a project like this.  You know that, right?   If a golf management group decided to start renovating old muni courses, or deciding what templates work best, I'd love to sit in and observe for free as a consultant, or walk distressed properties looking at routing possibilities.  That would be so fun, and I believe I would do a decent job helping with that.  But that would be risky, and using professional architects would be safer, of course.

I have been a member here for eight years, and it is difficult to introduce a new subject worth discussing.  It's just something to bat around, but I know at least one guy in the golf industry following this thread who thinks this is a serious idea.  Make cheap golf courses a commodity for mass consumption by creating a superior product, just like McDonald's and every other big corporation.   I think the idea is best suited to relatively flat, featureless property.

Also, it may be a plate full of stale cookies for the traveling golfer who gets to see great courses, but for the local guy with limited resources it might be the coolest thing around. 

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2012, 04:58:12 PM »
Jud,
I think using the family of templates is integral to this fantastical idea.

Not every hole on the course will HAVE to be a template, just the vast majority. Then you have, as you suggest 25 templates to chose from. Finally the ground you have to work with will ensure that the any one template will not be exactly like another at a different course…..the concept and basic elements are there. The order in which the template holes are offered up , dictated by the routing delivers a different tempo. These factors will provide variety aplenty, not humdrum golf. Finally, for  the golfer this concept is trying to attract, and this is the most important element for me, fun, thoughtful golf with the added bonus of insights into architecture will be provided.

I think that without the template design concept the fantasy loses a lot of its allure.
What would I know!!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2012, 05:10:41 PM »
Jud,

I have no intention of undertaking a project like this.  You know that, right?   If a golf management group decided to start renovating old muni courses, or deciding what templates work best, I'd love to sit in and observe for free as a consultant, or walk distressed properties looking at routing possibilities.  That would be so fun, and I believe I would do a decent job helping with that.  But that would be risky, and using professional architects would be safer, of course.

I have been a member here for eight years, and it is difficult to introduce a new subject worth discussing.  It's just something to bat around, but I know at least one guy in the golf industry following this thread who thinks this is a serious idea.  Make cheap golf courses a commodity for mass consumption by creating a superior product, just like McDonald's and every other big corporation.   I think the idea is best suited to relatively flat, featureless property.

John:

In many respects, this is like Common Ground.  If you just cut out the big-name architect's fee [I took royalties instead] and let the associates do the work at design-associate prices, it's affordable on the design end.  And my associates kept a close eye on the budget so there would be money left over to build the kids' course at the end with the funds we had.  But it was easy to be invested in that project, since it was a home game for some of them who live in Denver or grew up there.

All of them would do it again in a heartbeat if someone else could put the right deal together -- we are just too busy with our day jobs.  I've even thought of doing the same sort of program ... in China ... I've just got to find more guys who want to work there.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Welcome To McRaynor's, A Business Plan
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2012, 03:11:21 AM »
We actually found a site - a course that is open for play with great drainage but poor management. Unfortunately the land ask was too expensive.

Started kicking around this idea in 2009 - many of the same ideas as John's - The goal was (hopefully is one day) to build the first course and then repeat the model in other cities.

Yes, it is walking only which will limit the demographic, but a strong junior program and fairly short course on flat land would make it very enjoyable for golfers of all skill levels and ages.

http://www.walkerscourse.org/

The challenge is obviously bank rolling such an idea, building, succeeding and then replicating.

For the sake of the game in the US, I hope there is a way to make a model such as this work. Affordable, walkable, thoughtful golf design on shorter courses with strong junior programs, some sort of caddie/maintenance program for high school / college kids and ties to the community.


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