Do you believe (quote by Joe Leenheer)

[John Kavanaugh]

The contents of the following quote by Joe Leenheer:

"But to answer the topic question...nothing.  No part of the golf course makes this game great.  Sportsmanship makes it great.  Honesty makes it great.  History makes it great."

When I first read the quote the first thing that came to mind was how a few years back many of my friends here would chime in to agree.  Sadly it fell on deaf ears because the reality of our world today is that the quote no longer rings true.  Are sportsmanship, honesty and the history we have be force fed fairy tales? 

[John Kavanaugh]

A month or so ago I saw Tiger blatantly and legally improve his lie when on the fringe while playing lift clean and place.  I said, out loud no less, that Nicklaus would have never bent the rules like that to his advantage.  How naive was I?

[Kyle Harris]

I disagree.

The minute one breaks or even bends a rule, they cease to play golf.

Therefore, upholding the rules (a standard of all games and sports alike) cannot make a game great or not. That's like applauding yourself for not murdering anyone today.

The quote wreaks of the self-righteous behavior that turns many virtuous people off to the culture of the sport.

[Tim Gavrich]

I have to believe that if and when Nicklaus played LC&P, he didn't intentionally let slide opportunities to do what Tiger did. If he actually robbed himself of the Rules-sanctioned advantages that the entire field of the tournament enjoyed on a given day, then the more fool he. He probably cost himself one or two tournaments over his career by doing that.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have to believe that if and when Nicklaus played LC&P, he didn't intentionally let slide opportunities to do what Tiger did. If he actually robbed himself of the Rules-sanctioned advantages that the entire field of the tournament enjoyed on a given day, then the more fool he. He probably cost himself one or two tournaments over his career by doing that.

Golf is not a game of honor if the general attitude towards rules enforcement is he got his now I'm gonna get mine. 

[Sean_A]

A month or so ago I saw Tiger blatantly and legally improve his lie when on the fringe while playing lift clean and place.  I said, out loud no less, that Nicklaus would have never bent the rules like that to his advantage.  How naive was I?

These two sentences don't make sense when paired.  If the l-c&p rule is in effect, how is it bending the rules to take advantage of l-c&p? 

I disagree with Kyle.  If a rule is broken intentionally or not, the guy is still playing golf.  The only difference is playing by the rules and accepting the penalty if an infraction occurs or not accepting that penalty.  Both of these scenarios cannot mean the same thing.  But then, I could care less about a lot of rules if I am am playing my normal game for a few quid.  Do I really care if a guy marks his ball to clean mud off it?  Do I really care about the exact place for a drop?  The list goes on, but my reluctance to fall out with guys over golf is not in any way indicative of not playing golf.  I am sick to death of rules, rules, rules.  There are so many in golf that the rule book and Decisions are thicker than the bible.  It just doesn't mean that much to me.   

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean,

My notion is that all these rules have turned the game from one of honor to a game of opportunity.  Where I felt that Tiger, and others, bend the rules in LC&P was moving the ball on the fringe to improve a chip into a putt.  The intention of lift clean and place is not to allow yourself a better angle or a different category of shot.  The honorable thing to do is to clean your ball and give yourself as close as possible a shot as you would have had under normal conditions.  The opportunistic thing is to take advantage of a situation to give yourself the easiest shot possible.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have no problem with playing a game of opportunity, I just think it is time to lift the curtain and be honest with ourselves about the game we are playing.

[Tim Gavrich]

I have to believe that if and when Nicklaus played LC&P, he didn't intentionally let slide opportunities to do what Tiger did. If he actually robbed himself of the Rules-sanctioned advantages that the entire field of the tournament enjoyed on a given day, then the more fool he. He probably cost himself one or two tournaments over his career by doing that.

Golf is not a game of honor if the general attitude towards rules enforcement is he got his now I'm gonna get mine. 

I'd argue that the imposition of the local rule removes the honor problem you highlighted. It's not no longer a game of honor; it's just a changed game.

John, your statement seems to consist in a golf-moral objection to LC&P on its face. That's fair enough, but if the Rules give every player an acorn for the round and a given player refuses it, then it's not a game, more just stubbornness.

[Peter Pallotta]

JK - I think Joe is right. And I thinik the shadow side of this site has always been the inadvertent de-valuing of the game in the name of saving/improving it via great architecture. I enjoy discussing what makes for great golf courses, and admire very much those architects with the talent and dedication to create such courses. But I think that around here we've often missed the forest (sportsmanship, integrity, companionship, self control, learning, history, excercise, nature) for the trees (NGLA, Merion, the 52nd ranked courses built after 1940 but before 1960, the 10th best Redan not built by Macdonald-Raynor).

Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

JK,
Fairy tales and fables are told to children to prepare them for the realities of adulthood, i.e., there are bad and good actors, there are bad and good choices.

From an article on JN, written by Joe Dey in 1962:

 Charlie Coe was recalling the final hole in the 1959 Amateur Championship at The Broadmoor in Colorado. He and Jack Nicklaus were all square. Charlie’s third shot, a recovery from heavy grass behind the green, failed to drop by half a turn of the ball.
 “Then,” Charlie reminisced, “I went forward and picked up my ball. All of a sudden it dawned on me that Jack hadn’t asked me to lift the ball and hadn’t conceded my next stroke, and so I had no right to touch it. I said as much to Jack.
“ ‘Forget it,’ Jack replied, and he proceeded to roll in an eight-footer for a birdie 3 to win. Jack Nicklaus is a sportsman.”

And one more from the same article:
 
In the same championship during a match, Nicklaus asked the referee some rather penetrating questions about Rules as they walked along. The referee was moved to remark that Jack seemed to know the Rules very well indeed. “It pays to,” said the talented young man. “The Rules contain a lot of rights for the player.”
 
So JN 'bent' the rules, slightly, in favor of his opponent, but he also was fully aware that the rules could be used to his advantage. Other players may bend them more than JN, but I believe, with eyes wide open, that honesty, integrity and sportsmanship are well represented in the modern game of golf. No player wants to earn a scarlet "C".        

[Sean_A]

JK - I think Joe is right. And I thinik the shadow side of this site has always been the inadvertent de-valuing of the game in the name of saving/improving it via great architecture. I enjoy discussing what makes for great golf courses, and admire very much those architects with the talent and dedication to create such courses. But I think that around here we've often missed the forest (sportsmanship, integrity, companionship, self control, learning, history, excercise, nature) for the trees (NGLA, Merion, the 52nd ranked courses built after 1940 but before 1960, the 10th best Redan not built by Macdonald-Raynor).

Peter

Pietro

For mine, golf is by far a greater game for the venues.  I don't think I would have much interest if courses resembled driving ranges. 

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim's post reminds me of something I heard Fran Lebowitz say, basically: we keep reading our kids the Emperor Has No Clothes story and keep hoping that they will abosrb the 'lesson', but we forget/refuse to remind them that telling the emeror he has no clothes will COST them something, i.e. that to be moral and true and good, in this world, often hurts.

Peter

[Kyle Harris]

Sean:

How many rules must one break before golf is no longer being played?

Which rules are more definitive and which are the bendable ones?

Who are you to determine the difference?

There is golf, and then there is Arbleball.

Kyle

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - for me too; but you are the last person I'd accuse of putting  Great Golf Architecture (capital letters) ahead of an enjoyable and meaningful and affordable round of golf.

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

I have to believe that if and when Nicklaus played LC&P, he didn't intentionally let slide opportunities to do what Tiger did. If he actually robbed himself of the Rules-sanctioned advantages that the entire field of the tournament enjoyed on a given day, then the more fool he. He probably cost himself one or two tournaments over his career by doing that.

Golf is not a game of honor if the general attitude towards rules enforcement is he got his now I'm gonna get mine. 

I'd argue that the imposition of the local rule removes the honor problem you highlighted. It's not no longer a game of honor; it's just a changed game.

John, your statement seems to consist in a golf-moral objection to LC&P on its face. That's fair enough, but if the Rules give every player an acorn for the round and a given player refuses it, then it's not a game, more just stubbornness.

Alright then on the club level we should all look to they guy who legally manipulates his handicap to always do well in events and follow him.  If we are not sure where our ball crossed a lateral hazard then we should drop at the best possible scenario because we know other guys in the club do it all the time.   If we see someone declare ground unfit for play and noodle his ball we should get ours.  I get it, take what's yours before someone else gets it first.  I am rarely offended but to call someone who chooses not to be a bottom feeder stubborn got me.  Congrats, you win.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

How many rules must one break before golf is no longer being played?

Which rules are more definitive and which are the bendable ones?

Who are you to determine the difference?

There is golf, and then there is Arbleball.

Kyle

Kyle

No worries. I leave petty rule monitoring to those who are bothered - sometimes even in club strokeplay comps (horror, shock).  Because I don't care to enforce rules (even if I knew all of them - which is the biggest problem with enforcing golf's rules) doesn't equate to non-golf. Call a penalty on me and I will accept it.  Though if I think it was a petty call such as not marking my ball for "winter rules" in a game for $3, I will likely not play with that person again because I have no time for inconsequential stuff while playing a game.  If it walks like a duck and squawks like a duck - its a duck, but I kinda like Arbleball.   

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

A player who complies with the rules so not to be labeled a cheater serves himself not the game. That is a poor foundation for integrity, honesty and sportsmanship.  

[Kyle Harris]

A player who complies with the rules so not to be labeled a cheater serves himself not the game. That is a poor foundation for integrity, honesty and sportsmanship.  

This is a sport about which we speak, John. Not a game.

Your integrity, honesty and sportsmanship virtues are likely more exemplified by those who view the sporting nature of the pursuit of golf, and not the gamey nature of the competition. Tiger, in your example, was gaming his opponents.

The sport suffered because of the game attached to it.

[John Kavanaugh]

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Iam with Sean,
Venues overide so many of the crazy rules within the game, unless one is competing in an actual event.
If I am playing Cape Kidnappers for the only time in my life and land in a deep unreoiared divot, I am probably going to take a drop..am I no longer playing golf at a specatcular venue...as far as I am concerned I am.
The rules in FULL are for when I am grinding out a score in competition.

[Jim_Kennedy]

A player who complies with the rules so not to be labeled a cheater serves himself not the game. That is a poor foundation for integrity, honesty and sportsmanship.  

Baloney.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

Are you saying all golfers want to cheat but only stop to protect their reputations?

[Kyle Harris]

Iam with Sean,
Venues overide so many of the crazy rules within the game, unless one is competing in an actual event.
If I am playing Cape Kidnappers for the only time in my life and land in a deep unreoiared divot, I am probably going to take a drop..am I no longer playing golf at a specatcular venue...as far as I am concerned I am.
The rules in FULL are for when I am grinding out a score in competition.

One could argue that a golfer would relish the chance to overcome such misfortune at such a spectacular venue.

If you're going to simply strike shots only from conditions you desire, why not save the time and money by using a range with a view?

I would go so far as to say that it is the rules that help make the venue so spectacular. By assigning and arbitrary and personal value of what is and is not fair based on your personal value of the venue, you are taking away to ability to give the venue it's due. Assuming you dropped from the divot and then made birdie, how is the experience not lessened by your drop? For me, the chance of overcoming misfortune at great venues is far and away more valuable and exciting than my arbitrary decisions of what is and it not fair because of the context of my experience. You want to change the rules to suit your desire to shoot a lower score as opposed to use your skill?

Back to the point, regardless of what one does on the golf course - the game or sport have little to do with whether or not one is of honorable virtue. I would not call your hypothetical actions at Cape Kidnappers dishonorable, nor Sean's desire to game within the sport, however, they do speak much to what you value within the sport.

[Mike Hendren]

I can vividly remember learning the game.  I played mostly by myself, didn't know the rules and was oblivious to the game's history.  Nobody's going go convince me that I wasn't really playing golf.  It was pretty pure in my book.  

At its essence the game is about a ball, a stick, a field and a hole in the ground.  As long as you don't touch the ball until  you retrieve it from the hole, it's golf.  

FWIW.

Bogey