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John Kavanaugh

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What makes water hazards great for the game?
« on: November 12, 2012, 01:47:09 PM »
I love em.  From the Ocean to the cattle feeding troughs at Dismal, they each have their own personalities and challenges.  What do you love about water hazards that often goes unsaid?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 01:48:46 PM »
First off, I think they speed up play.  The finality of it all is more soothing than the anxiety of a failed ball search.

Mark McKeever

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 01:50:29 PM »
Agreed John.  If you see a splash, go drop one.  Quick and easy and not a 5 minute delay.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Matthew Petersen

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 01:50:51 PM »
The intimidation factor is what makes them work, when they work. No matter how severe the "dry" hazard, it doesn't put the fear into a player the way the certainty of a lost ball can.

I do also appreciate your comment on the varying nature. The ocean intimidates as nothing can and the thrill of carrying it is unequaled, but then you also have water hazards like the small creek which seem so innocuous, but so often are as punishing as a pond.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 02:33:42 PM »
John, here I agree with you. While I despise playing through a fish hatchery, as long as the water is negotiable by 20 handicaps and below, I'm fine with them. I like the comment on the finality of them; it sure does speed up play, as long as folks know the rules.

What I don't like is when they block all other routes to the promised land. There is an RTJ course at Boyne in Michigan, as well as True Blue and Royal New Kent (both Strantz designs), all of which finish with absolutely impenetrable carries over enormous lakes, with no play-in option. Either you make it or you don't. And we're talking 180 yards or more of carry. Even Cypress Point gives you the 140 yard layup option on #16.

I wasn't privy to the negotiations made by the architects and owners/developers, but I imagine that it was more owner-sided than architect-sided.

Courses like The Monster at The Concord or Thunderhill in suburban Cleveland do nothing for me. At times, I question which element (land or water) has more acreage devoted to it. That's not golf, not at all.
Coming in 2024
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~Indian Hills
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 03:23:53 PM »
I don't think man-made water hazards are great for the game, in any way, shape or form.

If there are existing water hazards, I'm happy to use them to add drama to the course.  But I think recovery shots are the most interesting part of golf, and dropping a ball at the edge of a hazard so you can play over it again is not an enjoyable form of "recovery".

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 04:12:37 PM »
Count me in on Toms assesment.
Way too many golf courses have been built over the past 50 years utilising man made water hazards.
To me they are a simple cop out to make a hole more challenging, oh..how can I toughen up this hole, answer, okay...put water on both sides.
I get very little enjoyment playing or watching golf on these types of courses.
I have always thought that Doral is way overated for ths reason, that 18th hole could have been designed by anybody with any knowledge of the game, just put water in the landing zone, all down the left and you have a tough hole, wow what great imagination!!!

Dan Kelly

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2012, 05:03:06 PM »
I have always thought that Doral is way overated for ths reason, that 18th hole could have been designed by anybody with any knowledge of the game, just put water in the landing zone, all down the left and you have a tough hole, wow what great imagination!!!

What do you think of Pebble Beach's 18th?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

SL_Solow

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 05:27:29 PM »
Dam;  tom drew a distinction between natural and man made hazards.  I doubt that very many will have a problem with pebble's oceanside holes.  Bobby Jones was another who disliked water hazards in his famous comparison where he likened ordinary hazards to automobile crashes and water to a plane crash.  He notee that in an auto crash, you had achance to walk away..  I think there is a real fascination first because, done properly, they are pretty to look at.  Second, they are often part of the "hard is good" philosophy.  Particularly when they are built near a green, they require a well hit shot to carry them.  Slight mishits which might run near or even on a green are penalized.  That said, from my perspective, there are no hard and fast rules.  From time to time, the ground may lend iself to a water hazard even where none exists and, artfully done, theu can be quite interesting.

Two other points.  If a pond is needed for irrigation purposes, and there is not an out of the way place to hide it, then an artful use of the pond is warranted.  Perhaps a diagonal carry off of a tee creating strategic interest is useful.  Second, on renovations, Mark Mungeam  told me that once a hole has water on it, members won't let you remove it.  Thus sometimes improving or moving an artifical hazard is the way to go.   But on balance, all things being equal, I am in the camp that says that recovery shots create some of the greatest interest in the game for players of all skill levels and thus with respect to water hazards, I believe less is more.  If the main beef is with searching for lost balls in tall rough, maybe the rough is too tall in the wrong places.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 05:39:11 PM »
I still thank that Kav's point on speeding up play (versus long grass or trees) by giving immediate feedback AND a clear-cut rule are helpful.

How many people hit a provisional when the ball heads toward the gunge or the trees? Few. As a result, when they don't find the ball, they are perplexed and confuzzled on what to do.

How many people utilize the unplayable lie properly, if at all? The water hazard eliminates all confusion. It usually gives multiple options!

I do agree that salting a course with unnatural water hazards is silly.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 08:57:52 PM by Stan Mountain »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Matthew Rose

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 06:07:24 PM »
Like everything else... okay in moderation.

I'd rather not see 18 of them. I don't mind a couple scattered far between.... sometimes they break up a routing. I find them aesthetically pleasing and calming, particularly when playing very early or very late in a day. I don't mind being asked to hit over one, as long as I can go around it or otherwise have a safe place to go. Going for a par-five in two with a creek in front and a hybrid in my hand is a great thrill.

Obviously they are better when they are natural, and if they aren't, at least when an attempt is made for them to look natural. Preferably something more interesting than a round hole that looks like a place where a small meteor hit the ground.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2012, 07:40:05 PM »
Specific question on a course we all know at least through TV.  Back nine of ANGC.  Doesn't the water make the holes 11, 12, 13, 15 & 16 great because of the water?  If you took away the water, wouldn't they be a lot less great? .... even though these water hazards are certainly not "natural".
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jud_T

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 08:08:38 PM »
I love water hazards and dense woods more than heather and sand because I don't have to use my head for anything other than a logoed hat rack.   :-\
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2012, 08:32:05 PM »
I love em.  From the Ocean to the cattle feeding troughs at Dismal, they each have their own personalities and challenges.  What do you love about water hazards that often goes unsaid?

The fear they create and the influence on the golfer's mind and swing.

They're a force to be seriously considered in the planning and execution of play, and as such, they take on a heightened significance as an architectural feature.


Yancey_Beamer

Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2012, 09:57:00 PM »
SL
Annandale C.C.,Pasadena,CA had a severely downhill par-4 with a small pond at the right front of the green.
It was removed when Harbotle revised the course a few years ago.This is the onily example of removal of water I
know. The hole was long and it took a minimal error in direction of the ball to enter the pond. The hole was improved
by removal of the pond.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2012, 10:08:10 PM »
Specific question on a course we all know at least through TV.  Back nine of ANGC.  Doesn't the water make the holes 11, 12, 13, 15 & 16 great because of the water?  If you took away the water, wouldn't they be a lot less great? .... even though these water hazards are certainly not "natural".

Carl:

The water on 12 and 13 was always there, although the club has tinkered with the look of the creeks some over the years.

There was also a small stream in front of the 15th and across the old 16th, which were changed significantly to give those holes their current look.  Of those two, I do not consider the 15th a great hole at all, although I'm fond of the 16th because of its wonderful green.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2012, 11:54:20 PM »
water hazards are to be avoided much like a cue ball and a pocket in billiards, there is no recovery

with golf being analogous to life, some things are meant to have a non-recoverable nature

Just ask Jean van de Velde















 
It's all about the golf!

Joe Leenheer

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2012, 11:58:46 PM »
Personally the contrast of water and grass is beautiful.  Needless to say I love Links golf.

I also like a good hazard that gives me the option to actually play out of.  Example: the burns at Oakmont.  I love the inner conflict of seeing by golf ball, knowing I could try to hit it, but realizing I'm better off taking a drop (note: I generally always try to hit it).

But to answer the topic question...nothing.  No part of the golf course makes this game great.  Sportsmanship makes it great.  Honesty makes it great.  History makes it great.  

Hazards make it fun, challenging, and picturesque.
Never let the quality of your game determine the quality of your time spent playing it.

Mike_Trenham

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2012, 12:18:00 AM »
Help you keep your towel wet.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2012, 01:46:27 AM »
I don't think man-made water hazards are great for the game, in any way, shape or form.

If there are existing water hazards, I'm happy to use them to add drama to the course.  But I think recovery shots are the most interesting part of golf, and dropping a ball at the edge of a hazard so you can play over it again is not an enjoyable form of "recovery".

What if recovery from the hazard is a plausible option? For example, the 5th at Whistling Straits has that shallow edge where so many of the players were hitting recovery shots form the water by the green. I don't think it blends in well with the rest of the course, but if you need to put in an irrigation pond on the course, I feel like that would be a good solution because the element of recovery remains
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David_Elvins

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2012, 02:39:44 AM »
...dropping a ball at the edge of a hazard so you can play over it again is not an enjoyable form of "recovery".

A sublety that I am not sure a lot of people have picked up on is that for 99% of greenside water hazards, the green will slope towards the water hazard meaning any ball dropped next to a greenside water hazard will usually be a fairly rudimentary uphill pitch with an excellent chance of getting up and down for bogey.  I dare say the scoring differential between a ball played into a man made greenside pond and a greenside bunker where the green slopes away from the bunker would be a lot less than most would assume and the intimidation of the water hazard over played in most players head.  And of course, as you state, a lot of the shotmaking and decision making is take away from the player.  Another way in which water hazards are often fundamentally boring.
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Jud_T

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2012, 03:41:44 AM »
What if recovery from the hazard is a plausible option? For example, the 5th at Whistling Straits has that shallow edge where so many of the players were hitting recovery shots form the water by the green. I don't think it blends in well with the rest of the course, but if you need to put in an irrigation pond on the course, I feel like that would be a good solution because the element of recovery remains

Perhaps using the worst hole on what some already consider an overrated, overpriced, artificial tournament course isn't the strongest evidence for your case...Of course they do serve a fine, non-watery potato leek soup in the faux British clubhouse...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2012, 04:16:14 AM »
I would generally agree with Tom, but there are always exceptions to be made.  Think of TOC's Swilcan Burn.  Okay, I think there probably was a natural outlet to the sea there - not sure, but the way it looks now doesn't strike me as a natural look.  The Burn was moved and made to look very sterile - BUT IT WORKS both aesthetically and strategically.  

I don't crave water hazards, but when a course uses water well and in a pleasing way I am all for them.  I only ask that it is obvious if my ball went into the hazard.  I hate it when a ball can't be found, but there is so much vegetation near the hazard that a lost ball penalty must be called - this is stupidity of the highest order.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 11:27:38 AM by Sean Arble »
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 08:39:17 AM »
Dan...I didnt realise that the Pacific Ocean was...MAN MADE?

Bryan Lewis

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Re: What makes water hazards great for the game?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 10:09:39 AM »
I don't think man-made water hazards are great for the game, in any way, shape or form.

If there are existing water hazards, I'm happy to use them to add drama to the course.  But I think recovery shots are the most interesting part of golf, and dropping a ball at the edge of a hazard so you can play over it again is not an enjoyable form of "recovery".

Sounds like something Alister Mackenzie would say.

I'm not a fan of the overuse of water hazards either.  At Interlachen, the property on the other side of the road has many little ponds on it.  Ross appears to have done everything he could to avoid them on those 7 holes.  Then you have the new Harbor Shores course here.  It seems where there wasn't a water hazard to tuck a green behind, Jack had them make one.

In my humble opinion, over use of water hazards do not make the game more fun.  As Tom has said recovery shots are fun.  They are what we all remember when with think back on a round and what we often enjoy most.  A par from a bad spot is a lot more fun than a routine two putt par.   :)