Article on Irish golf club joining fees

[David_Tepper]

Link to a lengthy article in the Irish Examiner on golf club joining fees:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/saying-goodbye-to-golf-clubs-hello-money-213673.html

[Ally Mcintosh]

The "race to the bottom" mentality is correct and is rather worrying. In his article, Brian Keogh has generally chosen high end clubs that are still charging joining fees of some sort but the vast majority do not now ask for any entrance money at all.... Meanwhile many Irish golfers seem to feel hard done by if they can't get a round for €25 or less...

I believe there's a long way to go for the Irish golf industry to sort out its problems... Our quality links courses are the ones with a chance of real stability as they bring in golfers from around the world and can (in some cases) maintain their courses on a smaller budget... but even many of them are walking the line at the moment...

Plus I believe there is a real Celtic Tiger hangover here. People know - and are happy - that those days are long gone but their attitudes haven't really changed - they still aspire to the idea of (unsustainable) luxury = quality in their golf courses. The golfing roots are less deep in Ireland compared to Scotland and England.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I had no idea that those Irish clubs were charging such high entrance fees.  Its probably a very good thing they are tumbling down.

Ciao   

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

The only thing I would dispute in your post is that the Irish roots in golf are less deep then they are in England.  Both countries came to the game late (mid-late 19th century) and both seem to think that the business model for the future is the USA's (another late entry) one of high-end venues with naive newbies and expatriates paying high entrance fees to get medicore golfing experiences in the bargain.

Like most of Europe, economically Ireland is "fecked" (as they say) for at least another decade.  Has anybody ever played any of the courses listed in the article that David posted?  If so, would any of you ever want to be a member there, even for a blind opening of less than 10K?

Rich

[Sean_A]

Rihc

The only enticing cub listed is The Island.  I am blown away they want 7K to join.  No thanks.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rich,

I still believe that English roots are better embedded than Irish ones. Golf was an entirely protestant and English sport when played in the late 19th and early 20th century in Ireland. The Irish Catholics themselves did not take up the game in any numbers until much later and it wasn't until the 60's that there was a real boom in the sport. Additionally, English entrance fees were nothing like Irish ones. It was a much more expensive sport in Ireland during the 1990's and 2000's...

You ask would anyone want to join the clubs mentioned for even the current fees? The four specifics mentioned (Elm Park, Milltown, Castle & Grange) are very individual cases. They are not about the quality of the course (although Castle was initially a Colt design). They are all about being Dublin city based clubs in the heart of the southside, Dublin's well-to-do area. People wish to belong to them for the social element and prestige. It is a ritual for affluent South Dubliners if they are interested in golf.

Sean - I agree but you want to have seen what they were just a few years ago. Even the most average new course within a commute from Dublin would be a five figure entrance fee. Most were €20k plus, good ones that were open for membership €40k....

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rihc

The only enticing cub listed is The Island.  I am blown away they want 7K to join.  No thanks.

Ciao

That is false. The Island is still €20k (or was last year) with regular annual sub. The €7k means paying an increased sub for the first 10-15 years.

[Sean_A]

Rich,

I still believe that English roots are better embedded than Irish ones. Golf was an entirely protestant and English sport when played in the late 19th and early 20th century in Ireland. The Irish Catholics themselves did not take up the game in any numbers until much later and it wasn't until the 60's that there was a real boom in the sport. Additionally, English entrance fees were nothing like Irish ones. It was a much more expensive sport in Ireland during the 1990's and 2000's...

You ask would anyone want to join the clubs mentioned for even the current fees? The four specifics mentioned (Elm Park, Milltown, Castle & Grange) are very individual cases. They are not about the quality of the course (although Castle was initially a Colt design). They are all about being Dublin city based clubs in the heart of the southside, Dublin's well-to-do area. People wish to belong to them for the social element and prestige. It is a ritual for affluent South Dubliners if they are interested in golf.

Sean - I agree but you want to have seen what they were just a few years ago. Even the most average new course within a commute from Dublin would be a five figure entrance fee. Most were €20k plus, good ones that were open for membership €40k....

Ally

Hoenstly, I had no idea the Irish were dealing in those sorts figures.  You lot really did get carried away with yerselves - no?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rich,

I still believe that English roots are better embedded than Irish ones. Golf was an entirely protestant and English sport when played in the late 19th and early 20th century in Ireland. The Irish Catholics themselves did not take up the game in any numbers until much later and it wasn't until the 60's that there was a real boom in the sport. Additionally, English entrance fees were nothing like Irish ones. It was a much more expensive sport in Ireland during the 1990's and 2000's...

You ask would anyone want to join the clubs mentioned for even the current fees? The four specifics mentioned (Elm Park, Milltown, Castle & Grange) are very individual cases. They are not about the quality of the course (although Castle was initially a Colt design). They are all about being Dublin city based clubs in the heart of the southside, Dublin's well-to-do area. People wish to belong to them for the social element and prestige. It is a ritual for affluent South Dubliners if they are interested in golf.

Sean - I agree but you want to have seen what they were just a few years ago. Even the most average new course within a commute from Dublin would be a five figure entrance fee. Most were €20k plus, good ones that were open for membership €40k....

Ally

Hoenstly, I had no idea the Irish were dealing in those sorts figures.  You lot really did get carried away with yerselves - no?

Ciao

Yes.

It was the new high-end parklands built on farmland for inordinate construction costs and more importantly (nowadays) the resultant inordinate maintenance costs.

These were mainly built with short-term gain in mind from an inflated housing market. Greed and ego.

They were usually the antithesis of sustainable design.

This mentality has not gone away. It has to.

[Jon Wiggett]

The problem that many clubs are facing financially here in GB&I is of their own making. They charged high fees just because people were willing to pay it but failed to see further than the end of any one financial year by spending money as fast as it came in and in many cases even faster and going into debt. This strategy turned loyal memberships that would stand by their clubs and help the club out in hard times into customers paying for a service.

Now the bad times have hit many clubs are reaping the reward of destroying the 'loyal membership' they once had and seeing enough of their former customers jumping ship to become GF players who drift from club to club. Without enough membership fees coming in to cover their bloated running costs and GF prices falling many are realising that they cannot support their business model nor are they able to reestablish a loyal membership.


To compound this problem, by dropping their GF price they are further alienating their remaining yearly fee paying customers and the cheap GF players are often treated as such being tolerated rather than welcomed at clubs. There seems to be a general lack of innovation within the golf club community on how to solve this problem.

The club where I did my apprenticeship which when I left in the late 1980s between April til New Years day used to open the bar mid week at 12 close t 2.30pm and then open again between 5pm til 11pm. The kitchen was open over midday period. On weekends it would be open from 12 noon through to 11pm. The kitchen opened from 9am til 7.30pm.

From the 2nd of Jan til beginning of April the clubhouse was closed through the week and had limited opening hours at the weekend. Only we in the proshop were there to open the locker rooms and keep things clean and tidy. The Steward and his wife who lived on site, would open up if there was a busy day during this period. The club saved on wages and heating costs during a time when the course was very quiet anyway.

Now this same club's clubhouse is open all year round and when I was there in February of this year the lad behind the bar said that he had hardly seen anyone for weeks. The club was paying to heat an empty building and pay staff to sit around (steward's accommodation was turned into plush new meeting rooms for the committee along with offices one of which was for the club captain). It had been a very well off club during the boom years with an 6 year waiting list for membership which cost £50 just to be on it. Now you can walk in and join with no references and membership is still falling. They will not drop the price of membership as when they did that three years ago 60 people left the following week yet have not looked at any other way out of the situation they are in. Innovation nil!!!

The way forward in my opinion is to turn the clock back if this is still possible by returning to a membership model where the members feel it is their club and not that they are paying for a service.

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Very good points, Jon.

Let me add my belief that virtually all golf clubs in the UK and Ireland have no significant value as operating concerns.  If you strip away all the accounting BS, most of the most successful of them just barely break even (if they are lucky), and if one wanted to value them from a true (i.e. include REAL depreciation of irrigation and buildings) cash flow basis most could be sold over the internet for low 6 figures prices.  However, what about the value of the land?  The clubs near where I live (Aberdour, Burntisland, Pitreavie and Pittferrane) "own" (some of it is restricted by ancient deeds) land which would sell for £millions (if not 10s of £millions) in the open market.  To deflower this arbitrage opportunity, there are substantial "social" and political costs/obstacles to be considered.

On the other hand, consider Dornoch.  The value of the land as a golf course is easily $5million+, just on a cash flow basis.  On a real estate value basis, however, it is virtually worthless, partly because of the quality of the land itself, but also because, if there were not a golf course there, who would buy the land, even if for holiday purposes?

We all need to get real.....

[Ally Mcintosh]

It is really nuts. With a couple of exceptions, a really odd line up of second tier parklands as well. But I think that is where the majority of Irish golfing consumers seem to want to play there golf. Around Dublin, you can get into Corballis, which I hear is a pretty decent links course for 700 euros a year and no joining fee.

It's a great wee course Brian... But at 5,000 yards long, a jammed full timesheet and no facilities, it is not what a lot of people are looking for in a "golf club".

The four parklands I mentioned will all do fine. Not great courses but compact pieces of land, older style with generally lower maintenance costs and a strong local membership.

It's the new ones that in many cases really need to be returned to farmland. Completely unsustainable most of them. And as Rich points out, you don't open a golf course to make a profit. Even the most successful should really plough all their profits back in to the course. The newer breed were built SOLELY to make short term profit from the real estate that was being sold for three times value around the edges.

[Kris Shreiner]

Ally, Rich and John,

Good points all lads! The bit about NOT opening a golf course to makie a killing is the best of the lot. It is VERY difficult to run a consistent profit on a golf course property, regardless of the model. It is possible, but you need talented folks that are totally commited to delivering a quality experience at whatever pricepoint is needed to cover expenses. And I mean ALL the expenses, not just the creative beancounter math so many use to justify they are "making it."

Irish golf got carried away with itself, just like so many other nations. Having fewer inhabitants, and relying heavily on outside money to fund and then support these new offerings, it was easy to see the freefall coming. There is too much unsustainable, mediocre golf ...worldwide...at present. A healthy contraction will continue until the shake-out levels off and supply and demand returns to a more balanced form.

Cheers,
Kris

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Firstly, let me say I'm totally against entrance fees, but the article gives a skewed impression of the golfing scene in Ireland. The clubs listed at the end of the article are special cases in my opinion. Nearly all of them are old established clubs that are very close to or are surrounded by towns/cities.

I don't recall exactly what the population of Galway City is (70-80,000 maybe), but for many years Galway GC was the only club in that city. They have always had a queue and it's no surprise that they charge an entrance fee. The same applies to Cork GC.

The Dublin clubs listed are in the city, and as Ally has said, are all in well-to-do areas where house prices during the Celtic Tiger were over €1-m; they may have now dropped to €750-k. Paying €10-k to join a club is peanuts when you're house is worth €1-m. These clubs are surrounded by houses and their land value a few years back would have easily been greater than €100-m each.

The entrance fees listed are not related to golf course quality; it's a result of distance from the urban areas and a lack of courses in built up areas. Killiney's fee is so high (especially for a 9 holer) because it's located close to where the "beautiful" people such as U2 and Van Morrison live.

I have played The Grange and it is a good James Braid course. Unusually, it starts off with two par threes. I'd recommend it to anyone. I have also heard good things said about Milltown since it was renovated by Mackenzie & Ebert. I've read great things about Jeff Howes' work at the Castle course; this is an old Colt design.

I didn't see Foxrock in that list, but I'd imagine that it wouldn't be cheap to join.

Ireland has a long way to go to get back to a situation where costs are realistic. It's easy to blame a club for high costs, but everything from insurance, GP fees, medicine, day-care, legal fees, vehicle registration tax, breathing air tax  , rental and lease fees, etc. is expensive. It's costs over €1000/month to put a child in day-care Insurance costs are just a joke. All these costs are passed on to you and I when we visit. The death of the Celt Tiger should be a blessing in disguise, but unfortunately the things that need fixing are not being addressed properly. When the economy improves, watch out for the return of those entrance fees. The "cute hoor" Irish can't resist ripping you off, especially if you're a tourist.

[Jud_T]

Are you saying I can join Portmarnock, Ballybunion, RCD and Lahinch for nothing down and 25 a round?  I'm In!  Pardon my Yank ignorance, but isn't this Economics 101 of supply and demand?  Top clubs in the best locations and dogtracks in the middle of nowhere both can and ultimately will charge what their respective markets will bear, all government subsidies and meddling membership committees aside.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Rihc

The only enticing cub listed is The Island.  I am blown away they want 7K to join.  No thanks.

Ciao

In 2004 I sent out a few letters to some clubs in north Dublin. I was hoping to join a club as I'd been without a club since the early 1990s. I got a reply from Forest Little, Turvey and Balcarrick, if I remember correctly. All household names eh?

Forest Little wanted €11,000 entrance fee, and Turvey and Balcarrick were requesting a returnable deposit of between €3,000 and €6,500. I lived a few miles from Forest Little but there was no way I was going to pay that amount, considering Dublin Airport had plans to plough a second runway through the south of the course. I'm not sure if these plans were shelved or not.  I didn't bother to contact the bigger clubs such as Donabate or The Island, as I knew they were out of my league financially speaking. Needless to say, I didn't join any club and had no interest in being a nomadic golfer in Dublin. It's no fun playing public golf at such delightful places as Sillogue and Deer Park in Dublin, when you're liable to get into a fight with a bunch of "gurriers" from Bally-WTF-are-ye-lookin-at?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rihc

The only enticing cub listed is The Island.  I am blown away they want 7K to join.  No thanks.

Ciao

That is false. The Island is still €20k (or was last year) with regular annual sub. The €7k means paying an increased sub for the first 10-15 years.

Sean. I do apologise. The entrance fee is now €7,500 plus €1,500 a year sub. This has changed dramatically in the last year.

In 2009 I approached The Island to see if they would consider giving me a reduced entrance fee (from the €20k they were quoting me) as someone in the industry who would happily take over course evolution / historian activities free of charge. This was rejected.

Luckily just a few months later, I was given the chance to join my preferred choice of all along.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Waterville this summer were asking 30,000 euro deposit, 870 annual fees.  As soon as I win the next 100 000 000 euro rollover, you're all invited.



Agree with Ally that golf spread its demographics in Ireland from the 60's on.   Even before the collapse many people saw its expansion as a sign of the times with a frequent claim that there were now more Golf Courses than kids playgrounds in Eire (never sure how true that was).  Now those times have changed, in addition to people working harder and still having less disposable cash,  Golf's image in Ireland may be more damaged than elsewhere. With little demand for additional building land this will play out over a long time period.  I would be very wary of putting down a sizable deposit in the current climate.

[Jon Wiggett]

Are you saying I can join Portmarnock, Ballybunion, RCD and Lahinch for nothing down and 25 a round?  I'm In!  Pardon my Yank ignorance, but isn't this Economics 101 of supply and demand?  Top clubs in the best locations and dogtracks in the middle of nowhere both can and ultimately will charge what their respective markets will bear, all government subsidies and meddling membership committees aside.

Jud,

to answer your question from a GB&I perspective. Golf Clubs used to be members clubs there to benefit this members so 'Economics 101 of supply and demand' were not relevant. Clubs were run on the budget the membership would tolerate and as most Brits were generally tight with money this usually meant on a shoestring with any frills being provided by way of donors. This culture has been lost through the greed of the last 20 years and will be hard to get back.

The problem with the free market is it really does not work. Here in the UK we are just about to be plunged into a possible crisis due to fixing of the energy prices. The energy market was deregulated because it was claimed that a free market would lead to lower prices. This is true but not if the dealers in energy are able to fix their own prices which are inflated in order to line their own pockets. Then the free market will lead to higher prices. Because of the number of households here in GB&I on the verge of bankruptcy due to fuel bills if fixing is discovered then I suspect the backlash from the public will be quite nasty for all concerned.

The free market has ruined much of what was good in private golf club culture on this side of the pond and it will be difficult to put it right.

Jon

[Jud_T]

Jon,

Couple of points...

1.  Price fixing and free markets are mutually exclusive concepts.

2.  If you're saying that golf club prices were kept low because that's what the membership wanted and the economics worked, great.  Seems like they're headed back to where they were, which is a good thing from a consumer's point of view, no?.  Of course I'm assuming that the good old days didn't include excluding any unseemly willing paying customers because they weren't from the right stock...That's a whole other kettle of fish....

[Carl Nichols]

To put this article in context--I haven't heard of many of the clubs discussed--does anyone know what the joining fees are at Portmarnock or Royal Dublin?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

Couple of points...

1.  Price fixing and free markets are mutually exclusive concepts.

Sadly only in theory

2.  If you're saying that golf club prices were kept low because that's what the membership wanted and the economics worked, great.  Seems like they're headed back to where they were, which is a good thing from a consumer's point of view, no?.  Of course I'm assuming that the good old days didn't include excluding any unseemly willing paying customers because they weren't from the right stock...That's a whole other kettle of fish....

All sorts of club types from working men types to exclusive. Certainly more inclusive than on the other side of the pond private club wise

[Ally Mcintosh]

To put this article in context--I haven't heard of many of the clubs discussed--does anyone know what the joining fees are at Portmarnock or Royal Dublin?

Carl,

I have an idea of what Royal Dublin entrance fees used to be but not now. They were fairly hefty.

I can say that during the boom, Portmarnock was relatively quite cheap - it was just very hard to get in. However, as all other entrance fees have fallen dramatically, Portmarnock's have gone the other way and are likely as much as anywhere's now.

But we had some silly numbers at one point... 6 figure entrance fees for a select couple of clubs...