[Jim Thompson]

Here you go RJ:

[Dan Kelly]

And another: What are the essential elements of a Redan (or an Eden, or an Alps, or a Biarritz, etc.)?

Questions 2 and 3 from George Bahto's December 1999 (tempus fugit !) interview are on point:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/george-bahto/

Kevin --

Thank you.

Dan

[RJ_Daley]

Hey Jim! 

You guys built a stout hole there.  Maybe it doesn't have the bunker along the back and the kick plate back right edge isn't as high as it could be... but it is a pretty fine hole that only seems right to put in the Redan category, IMHO. 

[Garland Bayley]

Hit the shot.
Does it really matter what the land looks like?

Which shot? If the land is not right, you may no longer have a choice.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I apologize for misleading everyone but hope you find the deception worth the experience.







Terrible cart path, huh?  :-)

I can offer more photos as well as detail of what you're really looking at if you're interested.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My guess is that the entry to the green is actually from top left of the picture and the view is from behind the green?

[Mark McKeever]

Looks like a battleground...

Mark

[Tim Gavrich]

The 7th at The Cliffs at Keowee Falls

The 13t at Oxford Greens GC.

[Jay Flemma]

I don't know about best, but Black Rock #9 is really good!

[Ronald Montesano]

Looks like a battleground...

Mark

Agree...not a golf course.

[Alex Lagowitz]

for the life of me, I can't see how the Pete Dye hole is a Redan. It looks as if the entire right side kicks away from the green, rather than toward it.

the idea of this Redan, as I recall from my readings, is an elevated green guarded in the front by a bunker, in a fortress way (the Redan from the Boer War, no?) that allowed a canny and capable golfer to swing the ball in from the opposite side and utilize the ground (what has come to be known as the kick plate) to propel the ball toward the putting surface.

none of the holes pictured here, beyond the opening one, depict a green that is blocked by the fortress. there are not just two (ground from the side and air) routes in, but at least three, which distances the hole from the purity of the concept.

it appears that this thread has gone the way of so many others, allowing Redan characteristics to substitute for the pure hole. i'm not sure if that is a good thing, but I've written my piece and I'll go my way now.

Ronald,

The 4th at Somerset was built by Seth Raynor.  I think he knew what a redan was, just a guess though. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Alex,

Adorable smarmy response. Look at the photo and tell me that you are looking at a true Redan.

Raynor knew what one was. I don't believe that he created one there, based on the photos we've been given.

The protective bunker is off to the side. The kick plate is non-existent.

I need more proof before I jump ship.

[Mark McKeever]

for the life of me, I can't see how the Pete Dye hole is a Redan. It looks as if the entire right side kicks away from the green, rather than toward it.

the idea of this Redan, as I recall from my readings, is an elevated green guarded in the front by a bunker, in a fortress way (the Redan from the Boer War, no?) that allowed a canny and capable golfer to swing the ball in from the opposite side and utilize the ground (what has come to be known as the kick plate) to propel the ball toward the putting surface.

none of the holes pictured here, beyond the opening one, depict a green that is blocked by the fortress. there are not just two (ground from the side and air) routes in, but at least three, which distances the hole from the purity of the concept.

it appears that this thread has gone the way of so many others, allowing Redan characteristics to substitute for the pure hole. i'm not sure if that is a good thing, but I've written my piece and I'll go my way now.

Ronald,

The 4th at Somerset was built by Seth Raynor.  I think he knew what a redan was, just a guess though.  

Whoops!  Wrong course!
Mark

Mark

[Ronald Montesano]

Somerset in MN is not Somerset Hills in NJ.

I still don't see the Redan in the one PCraig offered up.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The first picture I posted airbrushed cannons and sidewalk; the second picture shows the unedited picture.

This is Battery 5, a redan fortification, in the Confederate Dimmock Line at Petersburg, birthplace of trench warfare. The POV is from the south looking north; the battlement faced east and north, so it's not the ideal POV. And, yes, it was referred to as a "redan." That's not me imposing the term.

Here are a few more pics:

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Great stuff. Fooled me. Your earthworks redan at Petersburg is a reminder that the naming of the "Redan" at NB was attributable to the steep bank running the length of the left side of the green. That was the feature that reminded people of a redan fortification.

The name had little to do with the angle or slope of the green, which is how most people would define a Redan today.

Your picture is also a reason why a real Redan hole should be slightly uphill, like the original at NB. As a defensive fortification, it should be intimidating.  To get the right effect, you should be looking up at the redan earthwork.

Bob

[John Crowley]

Pat Craig is right in his second post - the IPhone pix do not do the Somerset Redan justice. The angles taken do not illustrate the true nature of the right front to left rear slope of the green. It is definitely a Redan.
Of the several Redans I have played, only NBW is a blind shot.
BTW the 15th at RDGC is surely a blind tee shot but the green is not  like the original at NBW.
The Redan that is most scenic and most fun to play is the 17th at MidOcean.
The Minnesota Valley hole does not appear to have enough Redan elements to qualify.
I look forward to seeing the Redan at Midland Hills next Summer, Dan Jeff.
The Redans at Chicago Golf, Shoreacres and OMD are all different but have the main elements I believe are important - severe front right to left rear cant,  the front left and center rear bunkers and the run up opening in the right front.
There are of course reverse Redans but I can't remember where - think I have played at least one.

[Nigel Islam]

Mark I loved the premise of your topic!

[Will Lozier]

Brilliant and fascinating Mark!  I would still be a really fun shot! 

Cheers

[Mark McKeever]

I can imagine some phenomenal green complexes using some of the similar features at Valley Forge!

Mark

[Alex Lagowitz]

Alex,

Adorable smarmy response. Look at the photo and tell me that you are looking at a true Redan.

Raynor knew what one was. I don't believe that he created one there, based on the photos we've been given.

The protective bunker is off to the side. The kick plate is non-existent.

I need more proof before I jump ship.

The first pictures that Pat posted are misleading.  Look at the aerial; the fronting bunker is clearly angled in relation to the tee shot and looks very consistent with every redan I've seen.  Also, the fortress concept was not entirely embraced by Macdonald-Raynor-Banks when they adopted the redan into their courses.  Aside from perhaps the one at CC of Fairfield and maybe NGLA, almost all of their redans do not have a fortress quality like the original at North Berwick. 
Which redans have you played?
Which ones would you characterize as having the fortress quality?

[Rick Shefchik]

In support of Raynor's Redan at Somerset CC in Minnesota, I offer this photo of the Redan at NGLA from George Bahto's discussion of Mac/Raynor template holes. At first I thought I was looking at #4 at Somerset:



From the angle this photo was taken, the greens are almost identical. Yes, there is no fronting bunker at Somerset, but that doesn't appear to affect the playing strategy of the hole. The left greenside bunker seems to be in the same spot on both holes. You'll have to take our word for it that there is definitely a kickplate on the Somerset Redan -- a back left hole location is realistically accessible only by getting a kick from the front right of the green and running your ball down the sloping green. There are many I haven't played, but the Redan at Somerset is the best one I have played.

[Dan Kelly]

You'll have to take our word for it that there is definitely a kickplate on the Somerset Redan -- a back left hole location is realistically accessible only by getting a kick from the front right of the green and running your ball down the sloping green.

Rick -- Not to disagree with you (and I certainly don't), but I do wonder:

Have clubs and balls gotten so long that the young guns could fly it high all the way to the back-left hole location and stop it there?

Dan

[Alex Lagowitz]

You'll have to take our word for it that there is definitely a kickplate on the Somerset Redan -- a back left hole location is realistically accessible only by getting a kick from the front right of the green and running your ball down the sloping green.

Rick -- Not to disagree with you (and I certainly don't), but I do wonder:

Have clubs and balls gotten so long that the young guns could fly it high all the way to the back-left hole location and stop it there?

Dan

As a college golfer (albeit not a good one ) I can attest that it is possible to fly it to the back hole location at many of the redans I have played.  I especially remember playing a junior tournament on the Banks course at Forsgate.  Hole 7 is a reverse redan that still has some redan characteristics.  With the greens firm (emphasis on firm), a bunch of players tried to fly a high iron right at the stick.  While some stayed on the green, most went over.  I gladly hit a hit shot into the center of the green and let it drift down towards the hole.
With increased length and my ability to hit high shots, I was able to hit at center of green rather than the front.  Back in the day, a low shot to front was probably what Raynor envisioned.  With firm greens it takes tremendous skill to fly and stop on many redans.

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