Which is the most engagingly designed course on a totally flat site....

[Mark_Rowlinson]

....with no natural lakes, streams, woods or other useful physical features?

I'm sure the question has been asked before.

It's, I suppose, like sitting down with a sheet of A4 paper and designing a course in abstract.

[Mark Pearce]

Is there one?  Does totally flat, featureless land like that really exist?

[Connor Dougherty]

I thinks its hard to think of one because good courses built on featureless land usually have manufactured features. The Jockey Club in Argentina does this, for example.

[Michael Ryan]

What's the best course in Dubai?  That seems to be the best example of the landscape you describe....

Mike

[Mark McKeever]

The Springhaven Club in southeast PA as well as Inwood CC on Long Island.  Both courses are on relatively flat pieces of land, but the contrours around many of the greens really seem to make up for it. 

The bunkering at Inwood particularly makes you almost forget that you are playing on flat land.

Mark

[Jud_T]

Talking Stick North, obviously...

[Steve_Lovett]

Timuquana Country Club in Jacksonville is on a site that has very little natural elevation change. It is an exceptional golf course and is never tiresome to play.

[Steve Scott]

I think Pine Tree in Boynton Beach FL fits the bill...

[David_Tepper]

Wouldn't it be Shadow Creek in Las Vegas? All the lakes, streams or woods were created by Fazio & Co.

[RJ_Daley]

Though I never saw it, Rawls course at Lubbock gets some love.  Whistling Straits, while aside the lake, was pretty flat land where the GC is sited.  As was the Irish course there.  Then again, perhaps the ultimate for creating a golf idilyc situation from dead nothing, is Shadow Creek in Vegas.  

[RJ_Daley]

David,  Shadow Creek, beat me by 15 seconds! 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Talking Stick North, obviously...

Talking Stick had a beautiful natural site before the golf course, as did several of the others to a lesser extent.

Rawls was a 100% cotton field - dead flat - go check the google historical aerial.
I don't know about shadow creek

cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Do you mean flat [a few feet of unremarkable elevation change] or flat [zero grade change]?  

It makes a big difference.  If you have sufficient natural drainage, then you can build something low-key.  If it is really DEAD flat, you will have to do a bunch of earthwork just to get the property to drain.

Shadow Creek did have a fair amount of tilt to the site ... it's all created but it wasn't flat to start with.  I would say the TPC at Sawgrass is really the best design from a flat site, but maybe Mark would disqualify it because Mr. Dye managed to save the trees, which few others would have figured out how to do.

Very gentle, unremarkable sites include Garden City and Kingston Heath [one small hill].

[Ian Andrew]

I think Kingston Heath qualifies.
It's not "totally" flat, but the landforms are very limited.

The reason I want to answer Kingston Heath is the detail work is off the charts making it more interesting and fun to play than most courses on great terrain. I can't think of another course that accomplishes so much on a flat site.

[Jud_T]

Talking Stick North, obviously...

Talking Stick had a beautiful natural site before the golf course, as did several of the others to a lesser extent.

Mike,

I don't necessarily disagree, but wouldn't you say that's a flat site?  Haven't seen Rawls although it's on my short list when I get down that way again.  If we're talking about parking lot flat then I suppose you have to throw the Glen Club into the mix.  Decent Fazio out of a Naval airfield.

[David Stewart]

Wasn't Crooked Stick basically a flat cornfield?

[Scott Warren]

Kingston Heath might lack major elevation change, but you won't be able to see your drive finish on 1, 6 or 16; 15 plays decently uphill and the approach to 17 is blind over a hill.

It's a fairly flat site but the two ridges are fairly significant and feature on almost a third of the course, so I'm not sure it really meets Mark's purposes.

[RJ_Daley]

Now that Mike Nuzzo chimes in, shouldn't we also consider his work at Wolf Pointe as pretty special on a generally flat or unremakable site?   

[Sven Nilsen]

The Springhaven Club in southeast PA as well as Inwood CC on Long Island.  Both courses are on relatively flat pieces of land, but the contrours around many of the greens really seem to make up for it. 

The bunkering at Inwood particularly makes you almost forget that you are playing on flat land.

Mark

Springhaven has a pretty big ravine that runs through a corner of the property.  Otherwise, I'd agree its pretty flat.

[Mark Smolens]

Talking Stick North, obviously...

Talking Stick had a beautiful natural site before the golf course, as did several of the others to a lesser extent.

Mike,

I don't necessarily disagree, but wouldn't you say that's a flat site?  Haven't seen Rawls although it's on my short list when I get down that way again.  If we're talking about parking lot flat then I suppose you have to throw the Glen Club into the mix.  Decent Fazio out of a Naval airfield.

Isn't part of the Glen Club built on the old Glenview Naval Air Station course??

[PCCraig]

Talking Stick North, obviously...

Talking Stick had a beautiful natural site before the golf course, as did several of the others to a lesser extent.

Mike,

I don't necessarily disagree, but wouldn't you say that's a flat site?  Haven't seen Rawls although it's on my short list when I get down that way again.  If we're talking about parking lot flat then I suppose you have to throw the Glen Club into the mix.  Decent Fazio out of a Naval airfield.

Isn't part of the Glen Club built on the old Glenview Naval Air Station course??

Mark,

Yes, holes #6, 7, 14, 15 (roughly) sit on the site of the old Naval course. Of course that land might of been more flat than the airfield!

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

The Springhaven Club in southeast PA as well as Inwood CC on Long Island.  Both courses are on relatively flat pieces of land, but the contrours around many of the greens really seem to make up for it. 

The bunkering at Inwood particularly makes you almost forget that you are playing on flat land.

Mark

I was thinking Springhaven as well, although engaging is not what I'd call.  Flat - yes.  Interesting - not so much.  Choked w/ trees, bunkers that don't fit the flow of the property, etc.  There was a thread here a couple years ago about "which course would you most like to see redesigned/renovated/etc.", and I voted for Springhaven.  Seeing places like Garden City, Hidden Creek, Walton Heath, and other "flat-land" courses offer what Springhaven could/should aspire to in its design and architecural presentation.  IMHO of course.

[Bart Bradley]

It might be Fancourt Links.

Bart

[RJ_Daley]

How about the engaging aspect of the template holes that are just a wee bit different from the typical template holes of the MacRaynor repetoire, The Country Club of Charleston.  Or, the modern marvel of Bulls Bay, where Strantz took a flat tideland and built a central enormous hill and then spoked and wove on and off the hill with interesting landscape features? 

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott I was just thinking that on KH as I went through the post. Blind shots on a flat course??

Deal must score highly in the "hilliest course on flat land" category, the high point on the course can me no more than 4 metres above sea level maybe even 3.5 metres.