Which is the most engagingly designed course on a totally flat site....

[Alex Lagowitz]

would Yeaman's hall qualify?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I was thinking of something that was a flat cornfield, treeless meadowland, even a flattened rubbish tip, former air base or military camp.

[Brad Isaacs]

Garden City.  Just amazing golf on flat land!

[Bill Brightly]

Not totally flat, but for "mostly flat" I might suggest Winged Foot. Great green complex construction makes it a top 25, IMO, not the land.

[Will Lozier]

#2-17 - to exclude the Swilcan Burn - of TOC?  Rumpled but flat. 

[Bill_McBride]

Scott I was just thinking that on KH as I went through the post. Blind shots on a flat course??

Deal must score highly in the "hilliest course on flat land" category, the high point on the course can me no more than 4 metres above sea level maybe even 3.5 metres.

Yes, and that's the sea wall!

Highest points - 4th tee, top of 5th fairway, 6th green, 16th green?

[Anthony Butler]

Is there more than 12 ft of elevation at St. Andrews? It amazed me how many times you had blind shot with just 10ft or less of elevation chnage And it drains incredibly... I last played it in conditions a breath of wind short of Sandy and the only place the water was pooling was in the bunkers...

[Gary Slatter]

TPC Sawgrass?   the swamp was the only natural thing I think.
The Castle Course in St Andrews was pretty flat, but is it engaging?
The Old Course was pretty flat, as was the Torrance.   Doral, but it hasn't been engaging for 20 years.

[Rich Goodale]

Chechessee

[Ally Mcintosh]

Too many courses mentioned on this thread that were anything but featureless sites pre-golf course... Mark's premise almost demands that the course has been shaped to a certain extent... For a new example, it'll be very interesting to see what the Renaissance team come up with on that current Chinese project where the whole course will be manufactured...

[Mark_Rowlinson]

What I'm looking for is such wonderful design that as you play you immediately forget that the original site was so uninteresting. The architect has done it all. Ideally he has laid on only a light hand and minimal earth moving has been necessary. I am not saying that this is a greater skill or gift than maximising the potential of a really fecund site such as Cypress Point or Royal County Down.

But, having played both Winged Foot courses, it fits the bill. If I were to be a little severe in my judgement I would have to admit that there is a stream/ditch, a lake, and a depression to play over on the 10th West. I don't know how wooded the site was when the courses were constructed. Royal Antwerp is also worth a shout, having been formerly a military training ground, but, again, I don't know how many of the trees which are today a major feature of the course were there when it was built.

As you have pointed out, a course needs only about a 10 foot elevation change to introduce potential blind shots - Hilversum, for example.

[Tom_Doak]

Too many courses mentioned on this thread that were anything but featureless sites pre-golf course... Mark's premise almost demands that the course has been shaped to a certain extent... For a new example, it'll be very interesting to see what the Renaissance team come up with on that current Chinese project where the whole course will be manufactured...

Ally:

I have high hopes for that project, but I don't think it will be an example for this thread ... there is just so much engineering work that is required there because of the river.  For example, all the greens have to be up to withstand the flood ... so we can't create as much variety with our earthmoving as I would like to on another site.

However, I am talking to somebody about a course which could very well contend for this list.  Should find out in the next month or so if I get the job ... it will be a big deal.

[Mike Hogan]

The TPC Twin Cities is a Palmer/Lehman design built on an old potato/ sod farm. The sight was perfectly flat.
I think the elevation change was less then 6" over the entire 250-300 acres prior to construction.
The entire coures was was totally manufactured as were all of the wetlands and ponds.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I used the word engagingly. It probably has a positive connotation. To me it suggests an element of beauty. Would you care to refine your suggestions in the light of this slant (I'm not suggesting that anything proposed so far does not have an element of beauty)?

[Mike_Trenham]

TPC Sawgrass is my favorite
What about Cassique which I think is better than the Ocean Course which is also a flat site desite the dunes that boarder it but are not really part of the playing corridors.

[Dustin Knight]

As Scott previously mentioned, KH is a decent example and I think Metropolitan would also be one considered as a relatively flat site in terms of elevation change over the entire property.

Magenta Shores on the NSW central coast was a former tip site converted into what I would class as an above average example... I'm sure there have been pictures of this venue posted before on here somewhere.

[Nick Schaan]

I'll gather some before and after pics, but our project Huntsman Springs, was as flat as you can get and still flow water. .5% corner to corner across a rectangular 1500 acre site.

www.huntsmansprings.com

[Niall C]

TPC Sawgrass?   the swamp was the only natural thing I think.
The Castle Course in St Andrews was pretty flat, but is it engaging?
The Old Course was pretty flat, as was the Torrance.   Doral, but it hasn't been engaging for 20 years.

Gary

Both the Castle course and the St Andrews Bay courses had a huge amount of elevational changes, did they not ? They might have been relatively flat (as opposed to level !) farmland before hand but all three courses had some features ie, gullies that were brought into play.

Niall

[Niall C]

Mark

Your OP immediately brought to mind a course I've now played half a dozen times in the last few years and come to love and and thats Duff House Royal, at Banff, approx. half way between Aberdeen and Inverness along the coast. Totally redesigned by MacKenzie in 1923/1924, the course skirts the River Deveron near the mouth of the river but with no real sea views to talk of. Consisting of of pretty flat fields with only planting round the edges, MacKenzie created a really engaging and charming course with some fantastic features, particularly the greens. The real joy of the course for an anorak like me, is as much as Mac managed to make his work look natural, given it was obviously a flat site to start with, its easy to see what work he did. When you think he did it in 6 months with 40 men and horse drawn scoops, its a fantastic achievement.

It may not come into the great category but it certainly lives upto the MacKenzie mantra of being fun and playable for all levels. Anyone rushing from Cruden Bay to Dornoch and doesn't pay a visit, deserves to have there passport taken off them IMHO  .

Niall   

[Don_Mahaffey]

Someone mentioned Wolf Point, and I think it could be in the discussion. There is a drainage creek that runs thru the 400 acre site that was selected for the course. But other than that, the high point was 20' above sea level, and the low 18', and it was dead flat.

It doesn't feel that flat now, and I do think it is engaging golf.

[Ivan Morris]

I'd consider Lytham and Carnoustie to be 'intriguing' flat sites with the latter slightly 'flatter and more intriguing' than the former.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Compared to Pine Tree and Boca Rio, Garden City is hilly.

GCGC does have movement in the land on the 4th, 6th, 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th holes.

Pine Tree and Boca Rio are "dead flat"

[Lester George]

Langley Air Force Base, Raptor Course.  Old bombing range and landfill next to tidal marsh.  No real natural contours. Just a few bomb craters below grade.

Lester

[Dave McCollum]

I second the nomination of Huntsman Springs.  Someone asked how I liked it.  My reply:  a 7 or 8 course built on a 0 site.  Couldn’t have been much more than a mountain meadow bog to start with.  Really amazing.  It has some form of water on 16 of 18 holes and is quite fun and playable.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Essex Golf Club in Lasalle Ontario. (Windsor)
A great Donald Ross layout on flat land.