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Patrick_Mucci

Did George Thomas adopt his style
« on: October 30, 2012, 12:55:11 PM »
from Norman McBeth ?

I wonder, how many golfers who have played much of George Thomas's courses and the courses of Norman McBeth, see a similarity.

Since McBeth was designing courses in California as early as 1904, with Wilshire in 1919, and Thomas didn't move to California from New Jersey until 1919, one has to wonder.

Having been a member of Spring Lake in NJ, a George Thomas course, I don't see a current similarity in Spring Lake and Thomas's work in California, so how did his style change ?

Perhaps too much time has elapsed to make a valid comparison, but, I'd be interested in early photos comparing the courses.

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 09:35:35 AM »
I was always under the impression that Spring Lake was a Tillinghast course or atleast was majorly touched up by him.
Also, over time courses change, so I'm sure Spring Lake is far from its original design, especially in the bunkering style, which appears to have been softened significantly.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 09:56:41 AM »
Pat
He was involved with Pine Valley and Merion after Spring Lake and before moving to Cali.
I think he saw some stuff that opened his eyes.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 10:10:26 AM »
Pat
He was involved with Pine Valley and Merion after Spring Lake and before moving to Cali.
I think he saw some stuff that opened his eyes.

Mike,

I"m not so sure.

I don't see anything in the bunkering patterns at PV and Merion that equate to his work on the West coast.



Sean McCue

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Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 10:53:22 AM »
Billy Bell helped Thomas Evolve his architecture from his early east coast offerings to what we know as his style.  Bell does not get enough credit for the bunker style created.   
Be sure to visit my blog at www.cccpgcm.blogspot.com and follow me on twitter @skmqu

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 04:50:14 PM »
Billy Bell helped Thomas Evolve his architecture from his early east coast offerings to what we know as his style.  Bell does not get enough credit for the bunker style created.   

Sean,

How many of Thomas's courses was Bell called in to alter/fine tune after they were completed ?


Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 05:51:59 PM »
Pat
I don't think it was his bunkering that made him a great designer.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2012, 06:24:20 PM »
Billy Bell helped Thomas Evolve his architecture from his early east coast offerings to what we know as his style.  Bell does not get enough credit for the bunker style created.   

Sean,

How many of Thomas's courses was Bell called in to alter/fine tune after they were completed ?


Bell was Thomas' construction superintendent from the beginning, he built all the bunkers where Thomas told him to.  So I guess the bunker style is really Bell's. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2012, 08:22:31 PM »
First off, its MacBeth, not McBeth.

Second, what exactly are you referring to when you say "his style?"  Are we talking about the look of the bunkers, or are we talking about a broader concept that includes bunker placement, the creation of options, general aesthetics, etc.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2012, 10:55:53 AM »
First off, its MacBeth, not McBeth.

That's really important, glad you pointed out the spelling error


Second, what exactly are you referring to when you say "his style?"  Are we talking about the look of the bunkers, or are we talking about a broader concept that includes bunker placement, the creation of options, general aesthetics, etc.

Their configuration.






Sven Nilsen

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Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2012, 01:58:24 PM »
Spelling a man's name right is not only respectful, it helps to avoid confusion.  There's a big difference between "Tom Dork" and "Tom Doak."

As for Thomas, if you want to look at the evolution of his style, I think it makes sense to lay out all of the work he did before passing judgment:

1908 - Whitemarsh Valley (PA) - course later worked on by Flynn and Ross
Unknown Date - Marion (MA)
1910 - Spring Lake (NJ) - course later revised by Tillinghast
1920 - Los Angeles North (CA) - with J. Neville and Herbert Fowler
1921, 1923 and/or 1926 - Griffith Park (CA) - existing course built by Bendelow
1921 - Red Hill (CA)
1921 - La Cumbre (CA) - existing course built by W. Watson and Bendelow
1924 - Palos Verdes (CA) - with W. Bell
1925 - Ojai Valley (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Baldwin Hills (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Bel-Air (CA) - with Neville and Grant
1926 - El Caballero (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Fox Hills (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Saticoy Regional (CA)
1927 - Riviera (CA) - with W. Bell
1930 - Stanford (CA) with W. Bell

Other influences:

Worked in Philadelphia until 1907 - was exposed to all of the great courses existing in that area at that time
Philadelphia Cricket - witnessed the reconstruction of the existing course by Ross
Philadelphia Cricket - aided in the construction of the new Flourtown course designed by Tillinghast
Sunnybrook - connected with the construction as influenced by Ross
Merion/Philadelphia Municpal - exposure to H. Wilson's design philosophies (Wilson also wrote Thomas with advice on his first CA course)
Pine Valley - member and watched the construction, assisted Flynn in 1928 with modifications
Served as a Captain in the Army Air Service during WWI - if overseas would be interesting to know if he had exposure to any courses
Moved to California after WWI - exposure to all of the existing courses in the area

So what does that tell us?  Thomas had seen many of the great courses in existence before he designed his masterpiece at Riviera.  A smart, yet possibly eccentric, man, he would have learned and absorbed a lot from the likes of Ross, Flynn, Wilson and Tillinghast, and perhaps even learned something from seeing some of Bendelow's work.  One could extrapolate that by the time Thomas moved to California he may have also been influenced by the likes of Findlay, Emmet, Jack Reid, Willie Dunn, Loeffler, Willie Park, W. Campbell and Travis, amongst others.

After his move to California, Thomas probably adapted his style to the ground found on the west coast.  So its conceivable that many of the machinations that worked well on the east coast may have been altered when he started working with a new canvas.  One would venture that Thomas would have learned a bit from the work previously done by Willie Watson, Fowler, MacBeth, Nicoll, John Dunn and Reid to name a few, and from his contemporaries such as MacKenzie, Neville, Grant, Behr and O'Neil.  A smart man, he would have viewed the good and the bad with the same critical eye while figuring out what worked and what didn't.

My guess, Thomas was influenced by his entire resume of experience with golf courses, picking up bits and pieces here and there while developing a style that emphasized a memorable experience on every hole and the creation of situations of choice for the player.  He was a well-educated man with a depth of exposure to the great golf courses of his era and the work of the great (and not-so great) architects that had preceded him.  His opinion was sought out on projects on both coasts, and from his correspondence it is evident that others not only sought his council but also shared their ideas with him.

To say Thomas adopted a style from any one architect is moronic.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2012, 11:29:15 PM »
Spelling a man's name right is not only respectful, it helps to avoid confusion.  There's a big difference between "Tom Dork" and "Tom Doak."
Yeah, MacBeth and Mcbeth are the equivalent of Doak and Dork in terms of misspelling.


As for Thomas, if you want to look at the evolution of his style, I think it makes sense to lay out all of the work he did before passing judgment:

Seeing as how he wouldn't have encountered MacBeth in NJ or PA, I would think that Thomas's move to L.A. in 1919 would be the line of demarcation.

His work at Spring Lake doesn't seem to resemble his work in CA.
.


1908 - Whitemarsh Valley (PA) - course later worked on by Flynn and Ross
Unknown Date - Marion (MA)   It was prior to 1910.
1910 - Spring Lake (NJ) - course later revised by Tillinghast
1920 - Los Angeles North (CA) - with J. Neville and Herbert Fowler
1921, 1923 and/or 1926 - Griffith Park (CA) - existing course built by Bendelow
1921 - Red Hill (CA)
1921 - La Cumbre (CA) - existing course built by W. Watson and Bendelow
1924 - Palos Verdes (CA) - with W. Bell
1925 - Ojai Valley (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Baldwin Hills (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Bel-Air (CA) - with Neville and Grant
1926 - El Caballero (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Fox Hills (CA) - with W. Bell
1926 - Saticoy Regional (CA)
1927 - Riviera (CA) - with W. Bell
1930 - Stanford (CA) with W. Bell

Other influences:

Worked in Philadelphia until 1907 - was exposed to all of the great courses existing in that area at that time
Philadelphia Cricket - witnessed the reconstruction of the existing course by Ross
Philadelphia Cricket - aided in the construction of the new Flourtown course designed by Tillinghast
Sunnybrook - connected with the construction as influenced by Ross
Merion/Philadelphia Municpal - exposure to H. Wilson's design philosophies (Wilson also wrote Thomas with advice on his first CA course)
Pine Valley - member and watched the construction, assisted Flynn in 1928 with modifications
Served as a Captain in the Army Air Service during WWI - if overseas would be interesting to know if he had exposure to any courses
Moved to California after WWI - exposure to all of the existing courses in the area

How many were there in 1919 ?
Any of note ?


So what does that tell us? 

Thomas had seen many of the great courses in existence before he designed his masterpiece at Riviera. 

Many ?
Which ones ?


A smart, yet possibly eccentric, man, he would have learned and absorbed a lot from the likes of Ross, Flynn, Wilson and Tillinghast, and perhaps even learned something from seeing some of Bendelow's work.  One could extrapolate that by the time Thomas moved to California he may have also been influenced by the likes of Findlay, Emmet, Jack Reid, Willie Dunn, Loeffler, Willie Park, W. Campbell and Travis, amongst others.


After his move to California, Thomas probably adapted his style to the ground found on the west coast. 

How different is the terrain at Wilshire versus Spring Lake ?

Why would the ground change his style ?
Perhaps he was greatly influenced by MacBeth's design at Wilshire, which coincided with his arrival


So its conceivable that many of the machinations that worked well on the east coast may have been altered when he started working with a new canvas. 

That's pure speculation on your part.
Neither Ross or Tillinghast altered their "styles" in their west coast designs, why would Thomas, especially if his style was so rooted in the east coast greats, courses and architects alike, that you mention ?


One would venture that Thomas would have learned a bit from the work previously done by Willie Watson, Fowler, MacBeth, Nicoll, John Dunn and Reid to name a few, and from his contemporaries such as MacKenzie, Neville, Grant, Behr and O'Neil. 

I don't buy that, he designed his first course barely a year after arriving in CA, doubtful that his learning curve was such that it was completely altered by those influences you allege.  Your premise mandates that his entire body of knowledge and style, learned for over a decade on the east coast, was eradicated immediately upon his arrival in CA..


A smart man, he would have viewed the good and the bad with the same critical eye while figuring out what worked and what didn't.

My guess, Thomas was influenced by his entire resume of experience with golf courses, picking up bits and pieces here and there while developing a style that emphasized a memorable experience on every hole and the creation of situations of choice for the player. 

Then how do you explain the disconnect in his style pre and post 1919 ?


He was a well-educated man with a depth of exposure to the great golf courses of his era and the work of the great (and not-so great) architects that had preceded him. 

Again, could you cite all of the great courses he was exposed to ?
Do you think they number more than the great courses that Tommy Naccarato, Ran Morrissett or myself have been exposed to ?


His opinion was sought out on projects on both coasts, and from his correspondence it is evident that others not only sought his council but also shared their ideas with him.

Ideas and style can be distinctly different.


To say Thomas adopted a style from any one architect is moronic.

Not really.
Especially when you compare his style pre and post 1919.

Is it moronic to say that Gil Hanse was influenced by Tom Doak, or Dork as you call him.
That Tom Doak was influenced by Pete Dye,
That Dick Wilson was influenced by Flynn.
That Joe Lee and Bob Von Hagge were influenced by Wilson ?


Sven Nilsen

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Re: Did George Thomas adopt his style
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2012, 01:25:28 AM »
Mr. Moochi-

There's a difference between "adopting a style" and "being influenced by."  You started this thread with the former.  Do I read correctly that you've now backtracked to the latter?

If so, I have no issue with anyone saying Thomas may have been influenced by MacBeth's work, as long as they don't say it was the only thing that influenced him. 

Unlike Tillinghast and Ross (and others) who did work on both coasts, Thomas is the only one who had a ten year gap between his last east coast design and his first west coast work.  There is no comparison between his and their situations.  The better analysis would be to look at Ross or Tillinghast's 3rd course and then jump forward ten years in their career to see how their work had changed.

I guess we disagree on how this change happened for Thomas.  You suggest it was a sudden epiphany that occurred after his move to California.  I, on the other hand, seem to think the visible changes may have been the result of many causes that took effect over a long period of time during which he may have been inactive as a golf course designer but was certainly not brain dead. 

Finally, if you need an update on the great courses that Thomas had exposure to before he designed Riviera, I'd suggest rereading Golf Course Architecture in America.  Its amazing how well the dates of those two endeavors match up.

Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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