[Patrick_Mucci]

punitive fairway bunkers I've ever encountered were at Wilshire CC in Los Angeles.

The weren't deep, they weren't huge, they were just configured in such a way as to make a full recovery next to impossible.

They tended to be long and narrow with capes and bays protruding and receding, making them play even narrower.

But, it was the way the configuration functioned that made them so difficult.

Balls rolling into the bunker tended to continue rolling forward until they came upon the sharp inclines in the front of the bunker/cape & bay, making extraction to the green impossible.

The golfer was faced with taking a wedge, either forward or laterally.

The back nine had generous fairways, so the bunkers come into play less, but, the front nine, a narrower nine that needs width (which is available), caused them to be more in play and more of a factor.

They were truly bunkers to be avoided at all costs.

While the greenside bunkers were similar, the distance required of the recovery shot enables the golfer to extract themselves without too much difficulty.

It's a wonderfully sporty golf course, originally designed by Norman McBeth in 1919.
Originally, there weren't many trees on the golf course, then, as is typically almost everywhere, tree planting ruined the playing corridors and look of the golf course.  Fortunately, the club's begun a tree removal program, but, more tree removal work remains, especially on the front nine, which needs to have the fairways widened.

If the club continues to remove trees and widen the fairways Wilshire will become the kind of course one loves to play, day in and day out, provided that you can avoid those fairway bunkers.  At about 6,500 from the back tees, the fairway bunkers aid in the quest to resist scoring.

Holes like # 10 look and play like # 10 at Riviera.

One has to wonder, did George Thomas adopt Norman McBeth's style ?

The greens tend to play small  and are well bunkered.

Take a look on Google Earth.

P.S.  Many years ago they discovered oil on their property and had wells on property to get the oil.  I'm told that there weren't any dues for decades.
        The tee markers are from oil rigs/pumps

[Lester George]

Looks to me like a number of template holes as well as unique bunkering.

Lester

[Michael Whitaker]

The MOST PUNITIVE fairway bunkers? I guess you have never played a UK course with revetted bunkers.  There is often only one option... to hit out sideways.

[Adam Clayman]

Does anyone know who did the recent work there?

The pictures recently posted show a huge difference in how it looked even a decade ago.

[Mark McKeever]

I was talking to Colbert recently about the fairway bunkering at Butler and this topic came up.   I need to still see them in person, but he says the FW bunkers there are absolutely brutal.

Mark

[Patrick Kiser]

Does anyone know who did the recent work there? 

Adam,

Kyle Phillips with associate Mark Thawley did the recent work at Wilshire CC I believe.

http://www.kylephillips.com/experience/kyle-phillips/

http://www.kylephillips.com/experience/mark-thawley/

[Patrick_Mucci]

The MOST PUNITIVE fairway bunkers? I guess you have never played a UK course with revetted bunkers.  There is often only one option... to hit out sideways.

I have, and my statement stands.

The elongated nature of the bunkers tends to capture far more balls than the revetted bunkers, and once in them, the ball goes to the front of the incline, rarely, if ever do you have a clear shot forward, and, the bunkers are everywhere.

[Mark Pearce]

The MOST PUNITIVE fairway bunkers? I guess you have never played a UK course with revetted bunkers.  There is often only one option... to hit out sideways.

I have, and my statement stands.

The elongated nature of the bunkers tends to capture far more balls than the revetted bunkers, and once in them, the ball goes to the front of the incline, rarely, if ever do you have a clear shot forward, and, the bunkers are everywhere.

If you had, and had been paying attention, you would have noted that many of those revetted bunkers have surrounding areas of fairway that, effectively, feed the ball into the bunker, thus greatly increasing the effective size of the hazard whilst that hazard remains small enough to make recovery problematic.

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Pat! Why don't you just start your next thread with just "The" 

As for the bunkers, Mac-Ray-Banks sure make some tough ones:)

[Patrick_Mucci]

The MOST PUNITIVE fairway bunkers? I guess you have never played a UK course with revetted bunkers.  There is often only one option... to hit out sideways.

I have, and my statement stands.

The elongated nature of the bunkers tends to capture far more balls than the revetted bunkers, and once in them, the ball goes to the front of the incline, rarely, if ever do you have a clear shot forward, and, the bunkers are everywhere.

If you had, and had been paying attention, you would have noted that many of those revetted bunkers have surrounding areas of fairway that, effectively, feed the ball into the bunker, thus greatly increasing the effective size of the hazard whilst that hazard remains small enough to make recovery problematic.

Mark,

I have good to excellent powers of observation and noticed the feeding effect, along with the size, configuration and depth of the bunkers..

I tend to pay attention to details as David P pointed out.

Have you played Wilshire ?

If not, on what basis would you be able to make any comparison ?

Having played in the UK and having played Wilshire, my statement stands.  

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike and Mark 30-0. I can name numerous bunkers just at Deal whose feeding zone is 10x the size of the bunker.

As for "full recoveries" well that's a dream at many links courses.

Patrick when we're you last on this side of the pond playing?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hey Pat! Why don't you just start your next thread with just "The" 

As for the bunkers, Mac-Ray-Banks sure make some tough ones:)

Jay,

I"ve been in most of them, but, extraction from the bunkers at Wilshire is a challenge.

They're narrow and configured such that your ball invariably rolls to the front of the cape/bay leaving you with no shot, or, the steep slope of the cape/bay prevents a backswing.  Even  your stance is cumbersome.  They are very, very difficult bunkers and are to be avoided at all costs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike and Mark 30-0. I can name numerous bunkers just at Deal whose feeding zone is 10x the size of the bunker.

Patrick when we're you last on this side of the pond playing?

10 years ago.

Did they change all of the bunkers in the UK since then ?

TOC, Gullane, Troon, NB, Western Gailes, Prestwick, etc., etc..

I've been around golf and have played enough golf, in the UK and US to know, systemically, how difficult bunkers can be.

Have you played Wilshire ?

[Mark Chaplin]

Never played Wilshire, I tend to stick to top 100 courses when in the USA.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Never played Wilshire, I tend to stick to top 100 courses when in the USA.

Then you're missing lots of great courses that are better than some of the top 100.
Regionalism plays a big part in the ratings.

When I was playing a top 100 course in the Northwest, my host asked me how it compared to the courses in the NY Met area.
I asked him how candid he wanted me to be.  He said he wanted me to be brutally honest.
I told him that it wouldn't make the top 50 in the Met Area.
That may give you an idea of how rankings are prone to regionalism and why you're missing out on so many good to great golf courses.
 

[Jim Franklin]

I just played Oakmont a few times in early October and those fairway bunkers are by far the most punitive I have played. They are much deeper than they were 6-7 years ago. Sideways or high lofted club is your only option. Pat, when was the last time you played Oakmont? If Wilshire's are harder than Oakmont, count me out.

My host was telling me about the history of Hogan's walks (the short cut of grass from tee to fairway originated at Oakmont) and I suggested Franklin's walks from tee to each fairway bunker since I was in most of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I just played Oakmont a few times in early October and those fairway bunkers are by far the most punitive I have played. They are much deeper than they were 6-7 years ago. Sideways or high lofted club is your only option. Pat, when was the last time you played Oakmont? If Wilshire's are harder than Oakmont, count me out.

Jim,

Two years ago.

Wilshire's are more difficult to get out of because they're so narrow and they're shaped like a u/v making one's ability to take a level stance very difficult.
In addition,  the capes and bays make it difficult to swing freely.

The ball almost always rolls into a position that doesn't lend itself to extraction.

And, all of Oakmont's bunkers don't feed the ball into a face or vertical bank.

Oakmont is narrower than the back nine at Wilshire and the bunkers are generally larger in terms of scale, but, Wilshire's FAIRWAY bunkers, systemically, present a very, very difficult challenge.

They don't look ferocious, but, their bite is worse than their appearance.

My host was telling me about the history of Hogan's walks (the short cut of grass from tee to fairway originated at Oakmont) and I suggested Franklin's walks from tee to each fairway bunker since I was in most of them.

[Mark_F]

If you had, and had been paying attention, you would have noted that many of those revetted bunkers have surrounding areas of fairway that, effectively, feed the ball into the bunker, thus greatly increasing the effective size of the hazard whilst that hazard remains small enough to make recovery problematic.

Not to mention the wind, the firmness of the ground, the sheer depth of many of them carved into rolling terrain...

[Patrick_Mucci]

If you had, and had been paying attention, you would have noted that many of those revetted bunkers have surrounding areas of fairway that, effectively, feed the ball into the bunker, thus greatly increasing the effective size of the hazard whilst that hazard remains small enough to make recovery problematic.

Not to mention the wind, the firmness of the ground, the sheer depth of many of them carved into rolling terrain...

Rather than reference vague generalities in the entire UK, why don't the three Marks cite specific courses.

Start with TOC if you'd like.

Are the bunkers systemically penal ?

Speaking of "winds",  I wonder if the "Marks" are familiar with the Santa Ana winds ?

[Mark_F]

Rather than reference vague generalities in the entire UK, why don't the three Marks cite specific courses.
Start with TOC if you'd like.

Are the bunkers systemically penal?

Here's a few of Muirfield from our very own Philip Gawith.  I haven't played there, but they look suitably venomous.







And one from Royal County Down. I'll tell you what it is like in a few weeks.

Speaking of "winds",  I wonder if the "Marks" are familiar with the Santa Ana winds?

I have no doubt when you are in California Patrick, there is a lot more hot air about. 

[Mark Pearce]

Muirfield does seems like a good place to start.

Yes, the bunkers at Muirfield are penal.  I'm not sure what Pat means by "systematically" penal but  many holes (3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 12, 14, 17 and 18) have fairway bunkers from which there is no prospect of playing for the green. That's not to say the fairway bunkering on the other holes is easy (anyone who has driven it into the LHS fairway bunker on 1 knows that, just not quite as impossible.

As to the winds, no I haven't been to Santa Ana.  Perhaps Patrick (who I assume is entirely familiar with the Gullane winds) can explain how the winds in Santa Ana are that much worse than East Lothian. 

[Martin Toal]

Wow. I had an entirely different picture in my mind of what Philip looked like.

[Mark_F]

As to the winds, no I haven't been to Santa Ana.  Perhaps Patrick (who I assume is entirely familiar with the Gullane winds) can explain how the winds in Santa Ana are that much worse than East Lothian. 

I have.  They are much hotter than those in East Lothian, but pale in comparison to a Northerly in Melbourne during a 40 degree day, which makes the Santa Ana wind seem like a budgie's fart.

[Sean_A]

Pat

Generally speaking, links fairway bunkers exact a 1 shot penalty.  Even very good players are not going to advance the ball very far most of the time.  Whether or not this is more severe than Wilshire's bunkers strikes me as irrelevant.

The most consistently difficult bunkering in terms of recovery I have ever encountered was the greenside bunkers at Yeamans Hall.  I could get out fine with decent results, but the guys I played with could not.  Nothing wrong with that sort of bunkering if one doesn't mind standing around watching Three Stooges type stuff.  I would also say that the real difficulty with the bunkering was only partly due to depth.  The hard packed sand (big difference on links with soft sand) was at least as problematic.  With soft sand, those bunkers would not be anywhere near as difficult.  Even so, I don't mind this sort of thing so long as the quantity of bunkers is tempered. 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

If you're going to extend the conversation to greenside bunkers (and we had been talking about fairway bunkers) then the bunkering around the 7th green at Muirfield is the hardest I have ever played.  The 13th gets lots of attention (Ernie Els miraculous recovery and it's place later in the round help here) but missing 7 left or right virtually guarantees a dropped shot and, if you get a lie close to the lip, can guarantee a ball in pocket moment.  Deep (deeper than I am tall and yes, I'm a shortarse) and vertically faced with flat bottoms, these are monsters.

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