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Mark Bourgeois

The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« on: October 29, 2012, 06:53:33 PM »


Now taking nominations for your greatest ____ nobody's ever heard of.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 10:48:31 PM »
Where's that?

My all-time favorite was the one at the NLE The Links Golf Club on Long Island.  It was about 225 yards to a high green angled well more than 45 degrees from left to right.  Only a perfect shot would do.  It really didn't feel much like a Redan, but it was awesome.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 06:52:37 AM »
The 15th at Dornoch from the front tees--~270 and blind (just like at NB West).  And once you get there, the green is incredibly complex, unilke NB, or NGLA for that matter.....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

PCCraig

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 08:42:18 AM »
I just saw one a couple of weeks ago that I thought was awesome and I don't think I've ever heard anything about. It is the 4th hole at Somerset Country Club in St. Paul, MN. The hole is virtually unchanged since Raynor built it in 1919, which is rare considering the numerous architects that have been involved their since. What I thought was so interesting about the green was 1) how large it was, 2) just how severe it moved from front right to back left and 3) the pretty extreme internal contouring within the green. While it wasn't the most visually intimidating redan I've seen from the tee, the green made for a pretty wild ride.

Here are a couple (lousy) iPhone photos:


« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 09:01:49 AM by PCraig »
H.P.S.

Mike Hendren

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 10:20:26 AM »
Mark, before this thread becomes a runaway, do you have more photographs of the hole?  Description, distance, course?  Other holes on the course?

Very intriguing.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 12:07:57 PM »
Mark,

Not to hijack your thread, but I have a slight twist: the Redan I played a hundred times and didn't know was there. It is the uphill version of the 5th hole at Rec Park in Long Beach, CA.

Tommy Naccarato showed me and taught me how incredibly blind I was.

Wish the hole hadn't been changed or that safety considerations probably prevent a restoration.

Wow, what a shame. Almost wish Tommy hadn't showed me.
Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2012, 12:39:11 PM »
I think the 12th hole at Angels Crossing fits a Redan template concept.  It is a long par 3 with a green oriented at an angle fronted by a deep large bunker-waste area, and the very large green slopes greatly from right to back left with a kickplate.  I can't find a good photo, but here is the graphic:

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2012, 12:48:47 PM »
Patrick...doesn't look like a Redan to me. Side bunker, not fronting. Not really a fortress. Right side is not very high/kickplate-ish.
Coming in 2024
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~Indian Hills
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ChipOat

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2012, 01:02:17 PM »
Tom Doak joins Tom Paul and me as the only known GCA'ers that played NLE The Links Golf Club on Long Island.

Since that qualifies as "virtually unknown", I vote along with Tom D.

It was actually a "Nader" as Tom accurately described it as going from left to right (like The Creek).  However, it was also slightly uphill, so bouncing the ball onto the green from the front left was a challenge.

Back then (pre-GCA), I didn't really know what I was playing other than something that seemed like the opposite of NGLA, Piping Rock and Somerset Hills.  At least I got that part right.

PCCraig

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 01:26:33 PM »
Patrick...doesn't look like a Redan to me. Side bunker, not fronting. Not really a fortress. Right side is not very high/kickplate-ish.

It's entirely possible my phone's camera doesn't do the hole justice. Here is an overhead shot via Google maps. I think the template is very alive here:

H.P.S.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2012, 01:31:29 PM »
13th hole at The Pete Dye Course, French Lick Indiana



The kick plate is maintained at putting green height. There is no bunkering beyond or right of the kick plate but the bunkering on the left side is very deep and treacherous.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 01:36:17 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Dan Kelly

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 01:43:28 PM »
Patrick...doesn't look like a Redan to me. Side bunker, not fronting. Not really a fortress. Right side is not very high/kickplate-ish.

It's entirely possible my phone's camera doesn't do the hole justice. Here is an overhead shot via Google maps. I think the template is very alive here:



It seems to me that what we have here is a very interesting question:

What is a "template"?

And another: What are the essential elements of a Redan (or an Eden, or an Alps, or a Biarritz, etc.)?

It seems to me (who is no expert) that the Redan "template" is, essentially, a green that is guarded by a bunker on the left and that falls away from front right to back left. And if that is the essential definition, Somerset CC No. 4 is definitely a Redan! It's a very cool shot -- attempting to fly or feed a ball to a hole on that green, whether it's a front-right pin or a back-left one.

If a Redan MUST be blind, or MUST have an intimidatingly high right side, then I guess Somerset No. 4 is no Redan.

But it seems to me that these templates, to be design and not just construction, must allow for enough variation that Somerset No. 4 (and Midland Hills No. 16, in the Twin Cities; is there a Redan at Minnesota Valley?) qualifies.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2012, 02:37:19 PM »
Dan,

I think the 2nd hole at Minnesota Valley is supposed to be a redan or was one at some point and time. In my opinion, it doesn't play like one at all anymore. There's no kick plate, the bunkering is a little off, etc...

Here is a picture:
H.P.S.

Alister Matheson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2012, 03:18:19 PM »
The 9th hole on the St Olaf Course @ Cruden Bay is Superb.
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http://crudenbaylinks.blogspot.com/

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2012, 03:40:26 PM »
Why so much love for The Redan concept?

Why not The Bottle?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2012, 04:02:33 PM »
Mac, other than the "short" with a thumbprint in the green surface, I think the "Redan" is the most recognizable template par 3 in the repetoire of par 3 templates.   If we consider the architects goal to build a strategically playable hole that has a universal sense about it, then Redan seems to fit the bill for repeatable construction-design.  And, it can be reversed to a Nader.  Fortress guarding a fade away on angle green, of varied mid to long iron or hybrid or FW metal, requirement.

It also seems to be the that newcomers to GCA study seem to grasp early on and learn the progression and repeated use from North Berwick on through decades.  And while we don't have a Biarritz Man, or Bottleman, we do have a Redanman.  Oh yes we do have some Shortmen as well, but that is a different story.   ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2012, 04:29:03 PM »
And while we don't have a ... Bottleman...

My hunch is that we have no shortage of Bottlemen! (Look for those wee-hours posts.)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2012, 06:26:11 PM »
Why so much love for The Redan concept?

Why not The Bottle?

Because it's the most well-defined.  Look at the Eden on Bill's Yeamans thread.  Wouldn't be identified as an eden on another course.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2012, 06:59:40 PM »
Not my favourite hole,  but I liked the Redan at Toronto Golf Club, and also one at Huntington Valley in Philly.  I do enjoy "redan" type greens on par fours better as you can jockey into the right position from the tee. 
I've never heard of the greatest redan I've never heard of, still not sure what I don't know yet, unlike Sean Foley.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2012, 08:25:25 PM »
Hit the shot.
Does it really matter what the land looks like?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2012, 09:38:54 PM »
for the life of me, I can't see how the Pete Dye hole is a Redan. It looks as if the entire right side kicks away from the green, rather than toward it.

the idea of this Redan, as I recall from my readings, is an elevated green guarded in the front by a bunker, in a fortress way (the Redan from the Boer War, no?) that allowed a canny and capable golfer to swing the ball in from the opposite side and utilize the ground (what has come to be known as the kick plate) to propel the ball toward the putting surface.

none of the holes pictured here, beyond the opening one, depict a green that is blocked by the fortress. there are not just two (ground from the side and air) routes in, but at least three, which distances the hole from the purity of the concept.

it appears that this thread has gone the way of so many others, allowing Redan characteristics to substitute for the pure hole. i'm not sure if that is a good thing, but I've written my piece and I'll go my way now.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jason Topp

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2012, 09:46:16 PM »
Dan,

I think the 2nd hole at Minnesota Valley is supposed to be a redan or was one at some point and time. In my opinion, it doesn't play like one at all anymore. There's no kick plate, the bunkering is a little off, etc...

Here is a picture:


Even though this one is called redan it bears faint resemblance to the original concept.  The Somerset hole, however, is one of the best I have played.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2012, 10:15:45 PM »
Maybe some Torontonians can chime in: there is a public course north of Toronto called Westview which I always liked, not least because it was laid out over a few years in the late 1950s by owner Pops Nesbit, a 75 year old true amateur-architect who took up the game late in life and fell in love and decided to buy some land and design and build a course. The 2nd hole is a 230 yard Par 3 that to me captures the essence of a (reverse) Redan just wonderfully, even though I'm not sure it technically qualifies. Maybe some of you from Ontario who have played Westview can let me know if I'm way off base or if you agree.

Peter 

Colin Macqueen

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 01:13:28 AM »
Gentlemen,

I thoroughly enjoy the discussions regarding original templates and am in tune  with Dan Kelly's musings when he asks,

"What is a "template"?
And another: What are the essential elements of a Redan (or an Eden, or an Alps, or a Biarritz, etc.)?"

For your delectation here are three past threads regarding the Redan which I found enthralling.

The Original Redan….
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34790.50.html

Rethinking the Redan
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46697.0.html

Was CBM's the first Redan
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31636.0/

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: The greatest Redan you've never heard of
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2012, 12:09:15 PM »

And another: What are the essential elements of a Redan (or an Eden, or an Alps, or a Biarritz, etc.)?


Questions 2 and 3 from George Bahto's December 1999 (tempus fugit !) interview are on point:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/george-bahto/
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson