Whistling Straits - Irish course: A pictorial!!! (18th hole posted)

[Kyle Henderson]

Ronald,

The 18th needs a more forgiving layup option. Even with a good drive, few can carry the creek and not many more will be able to set up a workable approach lie on the near side. Still, I like the green complex quite a bit.

Matt,
2 and 17 do feel much more like La Quinta than anything else on the property.

[Sean_A]

Kyle

What do you think about the course?

Ciao

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle

What do you think about the course?

Ciao

Disclaimer: As a magazine rater, I would be hesitant to offer any specific or harsh criticisms.

I really liked 4,5,6,7,8,9,11,13,14, and 15. Several of them are inspired creations. A few other holes I did not care for.

If a round at the Irish was $80 or less and it was not in the shadow of the Straits, I think most members of this board would be fans.

[Terry Lavin]

Kyle

What do you think about the course?

Ciao

Glad you asked.   

It's a feat of dirt sculpture and excessive eye candy, with a lot of good holes, but I greatly prefer Erin Hills, to tell you the truth.

[Sean_A]

Kyle

What do you think about the course?

Ciao

Disclaimer: As a magazine rater, I would be hesitant to offer any specific or harsh criticisms.

I really liked 4,5,6,7,8,9,11,13,14, and 15. Several of them are inspired creations. A few other holes I did not care for.

If a round at the Irish was $80 or less and it was not in the shadow of the Straits, I think most members of this board would be fans.

Trying to read between the lines, am I to take it that even with all the holes you really liked aren't enough to call Irish a great design? What are the holes you think are exceptional?  Out of curiosity, why did you choose $80 for the cut-off? 

Terry - same as Kyle? 

From the pix, I am not getting a sense of a course which really makes a statement.  It almost seems as though it was built to please as many folks as possible rather then perhaps taking what the land had to offer, but then that is a double edge sword which can be debated until the end of time. 

Ciao

[Kyle Henderson]

I really liked 4,5,6,7,8,9,11,13,14, and 15. Several of them are inspired creations. A few other holes I did not care for.

If a round at the Irish was $80 or less and it was not in the shadow of the Straits, I think most members of this board would be fans.


Trying to read between the lines, am I to take it that even with all the holes you really liked aren't enough to call Irish a great design? What are the holes you think are exceptional?  Out of curiosity, why did you choose $80 for the cut-off?  

Terry - same as Kyle?  

From the pix, I am not getting a sense of a course which really makes a statement.  It almost seems as though it was built to please as many folks as possible rather then perhaps taking what the land had to offer, but then that is a double edge sword which can be debated until the end of time.  

Ciao

Sean,
here are a few more lines to read between:.


Great is a obviously a relative term. Ballyneal is great. If it was a public course near my house, I'd plunk down $200 to play it without blinking. For the Irish, I would certainly play the course every so often for $80.

The land in Sheboygan didn't have much to offer, aside from the shoreline and a few streams. This is why millions of cubic yards of sand were trucked in to reshape nearly the entire property (and partly why the greens fees are on the high side).

[Terry Lavin]

Sean,

I've never played the Irish course.  Were I marooned in Kohler, I'd probably play it, but I've never felt compelled to stay there long enough to play there.

[Matt Kardash]

I would imagine that Dye almost had no choice but create a faux-dunescape at the Irish or else it would have seemed really awkward that a flat course was sitting right next to the huge dunes of the Straits course. Just a thought.

[Mark Johnson]

for me, the Irish course is a great example of fun golf, which is not necessarily the most interesting architecture but can be very enjoyable to play.

I think there are lots of risk/reward shots and there are a good number of birdies out there if you are willing to be aggressive.    I agree completely with the 2/17 la quinta comments and i generally think they are the 2 weakest holes on the course.

For me, if i had 10 rounds to play in the central WI area, here is how I would allocate them

Erin Hills 3
Irish Course 2
Straits  2
Milwaukee CC 2
BWR River 1
BWR Meadow 0

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Isn't Lawsonia in Central Wisconsin?

[Kevin Lynch]

From the pix, I am not getting a sense of a course which really makes a statement.  It almost seems as though it was built to please as many folks as possible rather then perhaps taking what the land had to offer, but then that is a double edge sword which can be debated until the end of time. 

Ciao

It would be nearly impossible to take "what the land had to offer" since the original land was a flat Air Base.  From my understanding of the history, substantially all landforms you see were created by Dye.  When you drive from the Kohler Resort to the Whistling Straits complex, it really hits you over the head.  You drive across 7-8 miles of dead flat farmland, and when you cross the gate onto the property, you are suddenly in the middle of massive dunes and dramatic elevation.

Personally, I was just in awe of the transition, and really didn't care that it was artificial.  They went all in with the landscape, so much so that you could get lost in it and suspend belief for a few hours.


Matt -

I guess the Irish was just a continuation of the faux dunescape at the Straits.  However, with a few streams and non-Great Lake hazards thrown in, the Irish has more of a disjointed feeling than the Straits.  The weakest hole (to many) at Straits is the 5th, when it turns away from Lake Michigan and you play a very odd Z-shaped par 5 around an artificial lake.  The Irish just has more of those "odd" feeling holes and doesn't enjoy the continuity provided by Lake Michigan.

In a way, the Irish landscaping provided an extra "buffer" zone to preserve the illusion of the Straits landscape.  While you would often catch glimpses of the farms and flatlands from the Irish, the only real point on the Straits where that happens is from the monster tees on #15.


Overall, I enjoyed the Irish, even with its weaknesses.  There is enough variety and fun challenges to make it worth your time.  As indicated by Kyle's favorite holes, the middle of the course is really the strength, and you do get pretty excited during that stretch.  Personally, I would add that #1 is also a great opener, but that just reinforces how out-of-place #2 feels and #17 just smacks you in the face after what you have been through.

Unfortunately, when you get through 16 (ball buster), 17 (out of character) and 18 (awkward 5 with bad 2nd shot options), it can take some of the luster off from the great stretch before that.

[Phil McDade]

Mark,

Isn't Lawsonia in Central Wisconsin?

Yes, and Milwaukee CC is not.

I'm not sure I've met anyone who would equate the Irish Course to Milwaukee CC.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kevin, I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I would like to point out that, while Whistling Straits was built on a flat airbase, there is quite bit of roll in the surrounding farmland -- not enough for great golf but maybe enough for a moderately interesting course with a skilled minimalistic architect at the helm.

[Andy Troeger]

Unfortunately, when you get through 16 (ball buster), 17 (out of character) and 18 (awkward 5 with bad 2nd shot options), it can take some of the luster off from the great stretch before that.

Kevin,
Great point here. In looking at the photos and from my memory of playing there, the course actually has a lot to like. I wish the Kohler quartet had one course out of the four that wasn't really difficult, but taking the Irish Course individually the first 15 holes are generally pretty good (with the exception of #2 perhaps). I really disliked the last three holes, however, and left the round with a bad taste that had more to do with that finish than it did the rest of the golf course. I still find it to be the weakest of the four at Kohler, but its worth playing if going to the resort anyway.

[Kyle Henderson]

I still find it to be the weakest of the four at Kohler, but its worth playing if going to the resort anyway.

For me, the front 9 at Blackwolf - Meadows puts it in last place among the 4 courses. The River course has some real gems and some less compelling connector holes, by my reckoning, so I'd put it in the same relative league as the Irish --  the River tends to score better in the magazine rankings. The Straits is clearly the main attraction but, given a few days for golf in the area, I certainly wouldn't play it exclusively.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin, I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I would like to point out that, while Whistling Straits was built on a flat airbase, there is quite bit of roll in the surrounding farmland -- not enough for great golf but maybe enough for a moderately interesting course with a skilled minimalistic architect at the helm.

I wasn't really sure how far inland the airbase went, so I didn't know how much of the Irish "needed" to be built up.  I assumed it was still quite a bit since parking for the PGA Championship was in a very large, flat field (which led to many cars stuck in the mud), and you immediately entered through the Irish Course.  I suppose there may have been something a minimalist architect could have done inland from the Straits Course, but I think it would have:

1) Made the Straits boundary feel more stark and forced
2) Been a drainage nightmare in that region (basing that observation from the surrounding farms I could see going to & from the PGA).

I suppose using the natural rolling terrain of that area may have produced something similar to the front 9 at Blackwolf Run - Meadows, which doesn't appear to be your favorite. 


What really amazes me about the Kohler complex is the variety between all four courses, and sometimes even the variety within the individual courses (Meadows Valley, especially).  I don't have a problem with the variety, but it's a fine line between keeping things interesting vs having a disjointed feel. 

On the Irish, I really didn't mind the changing nature of the holes (such as going from 13 - 14 or even 10-11).  I have a bigger problem with #2 & 17 simply because I'm not a real fan of water, especially running the entire length of a hole (Lake Michigan is OK, because you have to work REAL hard to bring it into play).  Throw in the fact that those are the only "artificial" water hazards, and it's even less enjoyable.  And the problem with 18 isn't its lack of continuity - it's just an awkward hole on any course.

[Andy Troeger]

I still find it to be the weakest of the four at Kohler, but its worth playing if going to the resort anyway.

For me, the front 9 at Blackwolf - Meadows puts it in last place among the 4 courses. The River course has some real gems and some less compelling connector holes, by my reckoning, so I'd put it in the same relative league as the Irish --  the River tends to score better in the magazine rankings. The Straits is clearly the main attraction but, given a few days for golf in the area, I certainly wouldn't play it exclusively.

Kyle,
I love the River. I think its (comfortably) the best of the four. But I like the setting for the Blackwolf Run courses better than Whistling Straits, even with the lake. I think the 13th at the River is a bit of a headscratcher, but the par fives are about as good of a set as I've seen.

I can certainly understand your point regarding the front nine on the Meadow Valleys, its not really anything special. The course doesn't hit stride until #12, although the last seven are excellent. I think the comparison between MV and Irish maybe speaks to the importance to a good finish. I would not dispute that the Irish has more good holes than the MV, but MV benefits greatly from having its best holes at the end of the round. The Irish lost significant points with me for finishing on a poor note.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kevin,
Again, I concur with your thoughts. Spot on.

Andy,
I like the newer holes on the River (5-12) along with 3 and 16-18 from the original course. The remainder is a step down, IMHO. I know many others, like you, prefer the River to the Straits, but I am not in that camp.

[Adam Clayman]

Just from the photo tour, you can sense how Pete built the tension. The back nine seems to go places the front doesn't. All the par 3's look special. Way more interesting than those on the Straits that pulls at the heart strings of those easily influenced by water views..

So I will take the opposite of Matt's view.  But I've played neither.

Honestly, the par 3's seem to be generally the best thing about the Irish. Then again, the par 3's on the Straits are pretty awesome themselves, though I admit a little similar.
Adam, so are you saying that based on pics you would think the Irish course is the better of the two courses?

Matt, Sorry I didn't see this until now. But, yes, I was speculating that.

I did receive a call recently from a friend that has played both courses there repeatedly. He's convinced that the Irish is a better golf course. He states it's variety alone, makes it stand out against the straits. But also mentions other aspects that make it better. Since I know his tendencies, and having read the analysis of reviews like Kyle's, and others on this thread, the difficulty of the straits is best left to the pros.

It's a pity most probably gave it the one and done chance. My friend did mention that his appreciation for the Irish grew on him after several rounds, and in his final analysis comparing it the straits, it's better.   

[Ronald Montesano]

"a deceiving tranquil landscape."

This is what begets when you have amateur grammarians playing drunken darts with a thesaurus.

Wow, I used to could write a bit.