Academic Question (Landscape Architecture BS, MLA)

[Cameron DeVries]

       Hey everyone, my name is Cameron DeVries - I'm a student from Santa Barbara, CA.  I'm a new member to the group so I'll provide a little background info and then I'll ask my question(s).  I'm turning 26 this year; favorite courses are Royal Dornoch, Pasatiempo, Lakeside Burbank, Lahontan, and Crosswater Sunriver.  favorite architects are MacKenzie, Maxwell, & Behr; I tend to prefer courses that have interesting design features such as severe green complexes and blind shots (love 16 at pasatiempo haha).  I played college golf briefly at Washington State in Pullman from '05-'06.  I also played golf for a season at Santa Barbara City College.  I started out in Landscape Architecture as a Freshman @ WSU, but the afternoon labs did not mesh with our practice schedule.  So after taking a course in public speaking, I decided that Comm was a good fit. Eventually, I transferred home to UCSB to complete a degree in Communication.  Unfortunately, I came down with a serious illness in '08 and was forced to WD from school.  After a few years of struggling with my health and unable to do much of anything i am getting better & looking into starting up school again.  I have about a year left to earn a Bachelor's degree, but I have now turned my interests more toward Landscape Architecture and the study of course design.   
     
        I spoke with Todd Eckenrode a while back and he suggested finishing my degree at UCSB and trying to get a 2nd bachelor's at somewhere like Cal Poly (he did something similar).  Cal Poly no longer offers that option due to budget constraints, but several other California schools do.  I'd like to stay in Southern California (hypothetically) so my only real option there would be Cal poly Pomona.  My grades are just OK shade above 3.2 GPA overall; it seems realistic that I could get in.  However, because my degree is not going to be in a related field I would have to take many lower division classes in addition to the substantial upper division work (over 120 units at least) for a BS in Landscape Arch.  This could take almost 4 additional years!  Pomona also offers an L.A. graduate program that takes 3 years and also would require some undergraduate courses for me to catch up.  They do accept students from different areas of study.  The # of units needed is much less (72 units), but I have to be accepted into a program that is very competitive.   

       Here are my questions:  Has anyone here done dual bachelor's degrees? what can you tell me about your experiences, challenges, etc?
                                          Is it feasible to be accepted into an LA grad program with an average GPA and limited design/building experience?
                                          If I had the choice, which might be a better option (BS or MLA)? and for what reasons (time, experience, value)?
                                          Would it be significantly more challenging to do a BSLA in 3 years than a MLA?  drawbacks, benefits of each?

Thanks for having me in the group and I greatly appreciate any insight you may have!

Cameron
                                         
                                         
             

[Jeff_Brauer]

So many questions, grasshopper!

My experience is 35 years old, but it was that the BLA focused on the site development stuff you need for golf, and the MLA programs got into many esoteric issues, like urban and regional planning, environment, helping humanity (i.e. elderly housing and the like)  I stress it could be different now, and within different programs.

However, as far as I can tell, the BLA, and taking a independent study course where you focus on golf, perhaps with Todd or another as your sponsor/critiqure (if no prof has golf experience, most likely) might be the best way to go.

[Tom_Doak]

Hi Cameron:

I am confident that if you have an average GPA, and money, that there is a Landscape Architecture program somewhere that would be glad to take your money and let you in.

And, you should be wary of them for just that reason.

I have to say that the longer I've been removed from school, the less valuable it seems to have been in preparing for a career in golf architecture.  One of my most talented associates dropped out of school after a semester and went to work building golf courses overseas, 25 years ago.  If you are willing to follow that path, that's what you should do.  And if you don't want to do that -- because it sounds uncertain, or you don't want to live a life on the road, or for any other reason -- then you'd probably be better off in another line of work.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.  The truth is that the field is overcrowded, and mostly, I'm just trying to save you from spending $$$ on an education that won't get you anywhere in the business.

[Cameron DeVries]

Jeff

Thanks for the reply, yeah from what I hear so far the Bachelor's (vs the Masters) in LA is probably the best idea (at least pertaining to building golf courses).  I'm definitely considering it at this point; so far the architects I've spoken with were very supportive & realistic.  Todd said that from what he's seen it's pretty important to have some kind of background in LA at least to get any apprenticeships/internships, etc.  He also said (like Tom mentioned below) that golf course architecture is a damn tough business to break into!! especially now....

Tom

No need to apologize.  I knew when I was entering school in the first place that pursuing golf design could be very disappointing.  I think for a while I was hesitant to take the risk, but now 8 years later I feel more equipped to ride out challenges.  I tend to think people that go all in with something tend to grow more than those who play it too safe so I appreciate your candid reply.  I've also noticed that way more courses are being built overseas than in the states.  I'm still at a place in my life where it would ok to be on the road (my other love is music so I always thought I may be on the road doing that anyway;).  May I ask where your associate started overseas and at least a little info on how he went about it? 

Before your responses, I'd mostly heard either: "go to work, start learning how to build w/ someone & forget school"
or "get the Landscape degree because otherwise it will be tough to get work"
SO its good to have that advice verified         I think youre both right (if that makes sense)

[Tom_Doak]

  I'm still at a place in my life where it would ok to be on the road (my other love is music so I always thought I may be on the road doing that anyway;).  May I ask where your associate started overseas and at least a little info on how he went about it? 

Eric was lucky to find a job with Perry Dye just as the business started booming in Asia 25 years ago, and he went right to Japan to learn to run a big bulldozer and do the mass grading stuff that Perry's more experienced guys didn't want to do.  It is harder to find those opportunities in China, as the clients are generally a bit tighter with the purse strings, so they demand experienced guys instead of just anybody who's willing to make the trip.

As to the first part of the quote above ... you need to be ok to be on the road for as long as you want to be in the golf business.  That's just the way it is.  Every once in a while somebody gets lucky and finds the sweet spot where they can stay busy without traveling all the time, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.  I am still traveling a LOT just to keep my crew busy.

[Ian Andrew]

Before your responses, I'd mostly heard either: "go to work, start learning how to build w/ someone & forget school"
or "get the Landscape degree because otherwise it will be tough to get work"

You won't get anywhere now without related construction experience.

Everyone you compete against has built golf courses for someone. There are many ways from Tom's excellent intern program through to construction companies. You may even combine both, but it might be wise to work a year in a crew, so that your worth bringing back for future summers becuse you have experience. You also need to know if your willing to fall back to this line of work or not.

If you timeline is inside 10 years for breaking into the design side of things, you may need to think seriously about something else. Golf design will not grow for at least a decade. Landscape Architecture can also be rewarding too, the trick is to find a niche that fits your interest and see where that takes you with a fall back as a generalist if required. I worked in Construction and then in an office later on. I may have pursued golf always, but kept a back-up plan at all times too.

For prespective:
I got 42 resumes this year - I hired nobody - and I'm considered busy by most architects
I have no plans to hire in the future - in my case probably ever
I used to be an outlier before 2008 - someone who wanted no employees and worked out of the house - not anymore...
The opportunities are very few and timing is everything in this business

[Ally Mcintosh]

Cameron, here's my angle if you need it... I'm from an engineering, project and construction management background from outside golf... At age 33 I started on the two year EIGCA diploma programme... This was the perfect and probably only way to have a chance at getting a start in the business... This was because I am (and was then) married with two children and it allowed me to continue to work more or less full time outside golf and thus bring in a wage... I've built any golf opportunities since then off that foundation... HOWEVER, if I was 20 years old without those responsibilities and wanted to enter the business, I'd go anywhere in the world and try to pick up work on a construction crew for living expenses and not much more... The only way in my opinion... and preferably a construction crew aligned with a designer rather than a straight out contractor... but either would do... So finish you first degree and then travel for peanuts would be my advice... Doesn't really differ from those above...

[Brian Ross]

Cameron,

I sent you a PM.  Check your inbox.

[Jonathan Mallard]

 

Cameron, here's my angle if you need it... I'm from an engineering, project and construction management background from outside golf...

 I'd go anywhere in the world and try to pick up work on a construction crew for living expenses and not much more... The only way in my opinion... and preferably a construction crew aligned with a designer rather than a straight out contractor...

Ally,

I'm from the same background, but on the design and maintenance side of the house. I'm curious as to how this would work out. I'm thinking that typically due to the size of the equipment required, most of that stuff is hired locally rather than transported from site to site - especially due to the distances between projects.

Can someone who is more in tune with current practice enlighten me? Thanks!

[Blake Conant]

I would say finish your bachelors degree if you've only got a year left.  Then, if you're going after an MLA, do some research:  does the college guarantee assistantships to grad students?  do they even have assistantships?  do they offer in-state tuition to grad students?  do they have substanstial scholarships available (something like 2-5k/year)?  If not, you're going to be looking at 60-90k in debt by the time you're done.  Maybe more.

As Jeff said, very little of your course load will pertain to golf course arch in an MLA.  Does the college offer any design/build classes?  Do they offer more than one landscape engineering course?  are there courses in surveying?  how many theory based courses are you required to take?  what about your elective options?  are travel scholarships available?  Independent studies to study golf course design?  Are there faculty members with a background in Golf course arch?   

Ultimately, you'll be 75k in debt and in school for 3 years.  Is that necessary for you to get to where you want to be?  Is it a safety net in case things don't work out?  There are plenty of people I know who had jobs they hated and came back to get their MLA and get a fresh start.   It's been worth every penny.  Not so much for others. 

If you decide to go that route, be sure to ask the graduate coordinator, Dean, professors, or whoever some of those questions above. 

Good luck to you. 

[Cameron DeVries]

Ian:

Thanks for your message.  I can tell it comes from a wealth of experience and hard work.  It is disappointing to hear those statistics, but from what I've heard from other architects as well as yourself, I'm not surprised.  The opportunities do appear to be quite rare.  I'm probably best served by doing what you suggested - trying to get on a crew and doing it for some time - both to gain practical experience and also to make myself a valuable asset to employers/potential employers.  I think it is wise for me to have a realistic back-up plan too so that I can make some sort of a living in the future, no matter what the climate of the golf construction/design business is (easier said than done of course). I don't have a time-table right now, but I also know there's not a lot of time to waste.

Ally:   
 
Thanks, everyone's experiences & opinions are welcome and helpful - a range of viewpoints is always more valuable.  When I'm back to being in good shape physically again, I'm certainly prepared to take opportunities whatever/wherever they may be.  Yeah I think at least getting that bachelors degree first is important for a number of reasons - after that, get to work...

Blake:   

I do plan to finish the bachelors degree, I think it is in my best interest... the good news is, the MLA program at CSU Pomona is relatively cheap.  They do offer in-state tuition (I can attend for about $8800 per year, so about 27,000 over 3 yrs) but obviously no guarantees I would be accepted to that particular program.  The other programs in California are much more expensive, more in the range you talked about (60-90k).  My grandfather actually got a landscape arch degree from Pomona, but that doesn't help much I will be contacting their department soon to get some information so that I can make a better/more informed decision.  Your questions will be among those I ask, thanks! 

Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses, I truly appreciate it!

[Bruce Katona]

Cameron: Living in NJ, we have rather limited internet access these days (Sandy was a very unwelcome guest), so I just saw your post.  My background is very similar to what you're proposing.  Here is the cliff notes version:

I earned a BS degree in Environmental Science from a state college in NJ.  As part of my degree, we were required to do semester internship.  I did mine with the City Planning Dept in Atlantic City and worked for both the City Landscape Architect and City Engineer. I found that I liked the work in Planning and applied to graduate schools of design (Harvard, Michigan UMass, etc.) & was accepted to Michigan.  I simply could not afford to go to school out of state and had to pass on Michigan and go to work.

I hated the job I took and was determined to go back to school. I went over to Cook College at Rutgers one afternoon to see the LA Dept Chair.  At the time Rutgers had no grad program in LA but had a very nice undergrad program.  The Dept Chiar asked me what I wanted to do in life and if it involved teaching. I said I had not interest in teaching. He told me the eductaion I would receieve as an undergrad would fit what I wanted to do but as it was not a Masters I couldn't teach. Fine

I transferred in all of my undergrad credits to Rutgers and wound up having to only take an English course, geology & Art in addition to the required LA curriculum and studios.  I graduated from Rutgers in 3 years and hit the ground running working.  I don't really do LA work anymore as my employers have been real estate development companies, but the training received in design school was great.

Hope this helps.

PM or email me if I can be of further help.

Best of Luck

Bruce