[mike_malone]

Who says you must be allowed to putt at the hole from every place on the green?
Who says a ball hit from the fairway should not back up off the green when there is not a false front?

  Just play the course!

[Ed Brzezowski]

Who says you must be allowed to putt at the hole from every place on the green?
Who says a ball hit from the fairway should not back up off the green when there is not a false front?

  Just play the course!

wow. Sounds like a Rolling Green member???

[Joe Bausch]

Who says you must be allowed to putt at the hole from every place on the green?
Who says a ball hit from the fairway should not back up off the green when there is not a false front?

  Just play the course!

wow. Sounds like a Rolling Green member???

Or maybe Chester Valley.  Maybe a dozen years ago on consecutive holes at CV I putted off the green (#4 and #5).

[mike_malone]

 Indeed I am.
    I think the 3 greens we have where , particularly in the fall, a downhill putt, even well struck, will roll off the green gives the course its personality.
 As for the backing up off the green, this happens on one which is uphill and has a ridge through the middle.Again it is  mostly a problem in the fall.
 I would appreciate some feedback from supers on how grass changes in the fall.

 If we raise the collars in the front of these greens the chances that you roll 70 yards down the hill would be eliminated for properly struck putts.
 I don't see why the greens should be changed.
 Somehow the view that a downhill putt must be allowed to stay on the green has become gospel.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I  now know I should not have given you that drop at Whitford. As our golf Chair said"  don't hit it there"

[Tom_Doak]

I remember Ben Crenshaw telling me once that he thought most good greens held a little bit of fear that you might putt off them.  And even he putted off the 11th at Crystal Downs that day.

I putted off a couple of greens at Wolf Point today, and had a blast anyway.  But, I'm pretty careful about minimizing those chances in my own designs.  It's one thing to have a putt you can't get close, but it's another to have a green so severe that it's tough for a good player to keep the ball on the green from above the hole.

[Bill_McBride]

I remember Ben Crenshaw telling me once that he thought most good greens held a little bit of fear that you might putt off them.  And even he putted off the 11th at Crystal Downs that day.

I putted off a couple of greens at Wolf Point today, and had a blast anyway.  But, I'm pretty careful about minimizing those chances in my own designs.  It's one thing to have a putt you can't get close, but it's another to have a green so severe that it's tough for a good player to keep the ball on the green from above the hole.

When I read Mike's opening post I had the same thought:  #11 Crystal Downs.  My one round  there we had a front pin. I was tickled to A&E a bogey!

Tom, I would love to hear your thoughts on Wolf Point.  I too had a ball there, and think of it as America's St Andrews Old.  Where did you putt off the green?  Was that your first trip to Texas?   

[Tom_Doak]

I remember Ben Crenshaw telling me once that he thought most good greens held a little bit of fear that you might putt off them.  And even he putted off the 11th at Crystal Downs that day.

I putted off a couple of greens at Wolf Point today, and had a blast anyway.  But, I'm pretty careful about minimizing those chances in my own designs.  It's one thing to have a putt you can't get close, but it's another to have a green so severe that it's tough for a good player to keep the ball on the green from above the hole.

When I read Mike's opening post I had the same thought:  #11 Crystal Downs.  My one round  there we had a front pin. I was tickled to A&E a bogey!

Tom, I would love to hear your thoughts on Wolf Point.  I too had a ball there, and think of it as America's St Andrews Old.  Where did you putt off the green?  Was that your first trip to Texas?   

Bill:

I will post some thoughts on Wolf Point another day.  I loved the course, but I am not going to do it (or any other course designed by a living architect) the disservice of comparing it to The Old Course at St. Andrews.  The greens were even wilder than I anticipated from previous visitors' comments, and they were pretty fast today, too ... there were a lot of interesting shots around the greens today.  It worked great for a little match, but if it were held to a medal play standard I think there would be a much more serious level of scrutiny.  Luckily Mr. Stanger doesn't care about that.

[Bill_McBride]

I remember Ben Crenshaw telling me once that he thought most good greens held a little bit of fear that you might putt off them.  And even he putted off the 11th at Crystal Downs that day.

I putted off a couple of greens at Wolf Point today, and had a blast anyway.  But, I'm pretty careful about minimizing those chances in my own designs.  It's one thing to have a putt you can't get close, but it's another to have a green so severe that it's tough for a good player to keep the ball on the green from above the hole.

When I read Mike's opening post I had the same thought:  #11 Crystal Downs.  My one round  there we had a front pin. I was tickled to A&E a bogey!

Tom, I would love to hear your thoughts on Wolf Point.  I too had a ball there, and think of it as America's St Andrews Old.  Where did you putt off the green?  Was that your first trip to Texas?   

Bill:

I will post some thoughts on Wolf Point another day.  I loved the course, but I am not going to do it (or any other course designed by a living architect) the disservice of comparing it to The Old Course at St. Andrews.  The greens were even wilder than I anticipated from previous visitors' comments, and they were pretty fast today, too ... there were a lot of interesting shots around the greens today.  It worked great for a little match, but if it were held to a medal play standard I think there would be a much more serious level of scrutiny.  Luckily Mr. Stanger doesn't care about that.

I make the comparison because I haven't played another American course that I can think of that is as wide and full of charming wrinkles and anges.  Obviously it's not a direct comparison, it's what, five years old?!   

[Tom_Doak]

I make the comparison because I haven't played another American course that I can think of that is as wide and full of charming wrinkles and anges.  Obviously it's not a direct comparison, it's what, five years old?!   

Bill:

I have to say, I was so focused on the greens there that I discounted the width and angles of the course a bit.  You are right about the angles, though I wouldn't have used the word "charming" ... they are relentless in the way that it's so hard to get into a position where they are really helping you as opposed to hurting you.

However, the course did not play so wide today, between the strong north winds and the thigh-high native roughs.  There were some pretty good players in our four-ball, and among us we must have lost a dozen balls today.  It's been a pretty good year for growing grass in the roughs here, and I guess I kept Don too busy in Nebraska to give him time to cut the grass at the margins!

[Ben Sims]

Bill,

Coming from someone that has quite a few rounds on the golf course, I am coming to realize that the St. Andrews comparison is a bit off.  The turf differences cause the ball to react so much differently than they would on fescue.  That isn't to say that the turf isn't very firm.  It is, and Don does a great job of fostering that environment.  His whole philosophy of growing a great surface for a sport rather than pretty grass is on display in force at Wolf.  But I feel like the golf course is more than just wide and shapely.  There is a ton of confusion for first timers (and even 10-timers) out there.  Because the greens are at grade, the player gets a level view of the green on many approaches.  And due to the contours on the greens, it's very difficult to know which contour on those greens can be your friend, and which ones are foes based on your angle. 

More than any course I have ever played, "hitting a number" with approach shots is worthless.  My best matches at WP have always come without yardage aids. 

[Mike_Clayton]

I played the Old Course at The National (RTJ Jnr.)on the Mornington Peninsula today. The 3rd is a steeply uphill par 4 with a two-tier green.
Brian Walshe relayed the story of a previous Captain of the club who putted from top tier to the bottom tie, off the front of the green and had a 200 yard shot back up the hill for his next.
If you know the hole you can imagine how that would have been possible - before they grew the rough at the front of the green.

[James Bennett]

Mayday

did you enjoy watching Royal melbourne 5 west at the Presidents' Cup last year? (3rd hole played).

Several people putted off the green, and finished 50 yards short.  Some great recoveries, and some 'unlucky' ones followed.

PS  I recall fondly Rolling Green #8 - I assume that is the long par 4 with the uphil second and a strong false front. Intimidating indeed.

By the way, you could always introduce an articial barrier for that critical autumn period if you really had too - better than stuffing up the turf.  Put down a rope to catch a ball running down the hill.  Not a purists outcome though. 

James B

[Ally Mcintosh]

Who says you must be allowed to putt at the hole from every place on the green?
Who says a ball hit from the fairway should not back up off the green when there is not a false front?

  Just play the course!

  Not that keen on your first point  - I prefer you to have a CHANCE at getting near the hole from EVERY point on the green... And your question in the title thread is slightly different I guess... Although I never say never, I think it should be a rare tool indeed that sees a putt at a hole location unable to hold a green and in many cases providing what is not far off a two stroke penalty... But there are great holes like that and it's good to see that boundary pushed... Just not so keen when it is crossed...

[Brent Hutto]

In my humble opinion, there is a line beyond which a hole location is silly rather than a valid setup. I would draw the line by saying a putt from below the hole should be able to stop and not reverse direction and roll back off the green. But I think it is perfectly valid to play the hole where putting from above means rolling off the green if you miss.

In other words, there needs to be some place you hit the ball from which a well judged putt that does not go in remains with a few feet of the hole. Repeated attempts at making a 20-30 foot putt from the front fringe and having it roll back to ones feet four, five, six, seven times is not fun nor is it golf. In my opinion.

[Rich Goodale]

In my humble opinion, there is a line beyond which a hole location is silly rather than a valid setup. I would draw the line by saying a putt from below the hole should be able to stop and not reverse direction and roll back off the green. But I think it is perfectly valid to play the hole where putting from above means rolling off the green if you miss.

In other words, there needs to be some place you hit the ball from which a well judged putt that does not go in remains with a few feet of the hole. Repeated attempts at making a 20-30 foot putt from the front fringe and having it roll back to ones feet four, five, six, seven times is not fun nor is it golf. In my opinion.

ditto

[Ally Mcintosh]

In my humble opinion, there is a line beyond which a hole location is silly rather than a valid setup. I would draw the line by saying a putt from below the hole should be able to stop and not reverse direction and roll back off the green. But I think it is perfectly valid to play the hole where putting from above means rolling off the green if you miss.

I am trying to work out how the science of this even makes sense...  In other words, if you start a ball from still and putt it up a hill, it is a physical impossibility for the ball to reach a stop and then reverse up and go further back past where you started and off the green... Unless the hole is cut on a steep slope that is absolutely not pinnable?... As for having to putt off the green from above, this is effectively a stroke and a half penalty... Too severe in my opinion. Perhaps happy enough to see it from one location once in a round... Repeatedly is not good... That's not to say that leaving a chance of putting off the green isn't good design (it most certainly can be)... Just that necessitating it is not desirable...

[Carl Rogers]

This thread sounds like the George Cup at Ballyhack last weekend.  Holes 5, 9 & 14 exhibited this characteristic (coupled w/ 3 inch and no fringe). 

Green speed arms race, leading to severe frustration,... the game is supposed to be fun??

Do you really need to hit people over the head to remind them that they are not plus handicap golfers?  How embarrassing must the game be made?

[Don_Mahaffey]

I remember Ben Crenshaw telling me once that he thought most good greens held a little bit of fear that you might putt off them.  And even he putted off the 11th at Crystal Downs that day.

I putted off a couple of greens at Wolf Point today, and had a blast anyway.  But, I'm pretty careful about minimizing those chances in my own designs.  It's one thing to have a putt you can't get close, but it's another to have a green so severe that it's tough for a good player to keep the ball on the green from above the hole.

When I read Mike's opening post I had the same thought:  #11 Crystal Downs.  My one round  there we had a front pin. I was tickled to A&E a bogey!

Tom, I would love to hear your thoughts on Wolf Point.  I too had a ball there, and think of it as America's St Andrews Old.  Where did you putt off the green?  Was that your first trip to Texas?   

Bill:

I will post some thoughts on Wolf Point another day.  I loved the course, but I am not going to do it (or any other course designed by a living architect) the disservice of comparing it to The Old Course at St. Andrews.  The greens were even wilder than I anticipated from previous visitors' comments, and they were pretty fast today, too ... there were a lot of interesting shots around the greens today.  It worked great for a little match, but if it were held to a medal play standard I think there would be a much more serious level of scrutiny.  Luckily Mr. Stanger doesn't care about that.

Tom might have putted off a couple of greens (both putts were the up and over types, not down hill screamers) but he also chipped in twice, with a 4 iron! He also made about every 6 footer he looked at and they were not straight putts. He is the first visitor who had the greens figured out on his first play.

What I find interesting about WP is almost everyone goes away saying they had a great time, but also saying the course is too severe for use as a daily fee or busy private club. Just about everyone who plays has fun; I have a number of buddies who play a lot all over TX and they never turn down an opportunity to play WP.

So, does it say more about WP, or how we view golf in general, when you have a course that most enjoy very much, but is generally considered too extreme for the general public?
Sometimes I think we in golf over value our percieved knowledge of golfers, and under value the opinion of the everyday golfer in favor of the expert player who knows what a good course should be.

With a few minor tweaks, I believe a course built and maintained like WP would be well recieved. Don't think we'll see it anytime soon as its not a safe choice, but really, how safe have the choices been to go with the norm?

[Rick Shefchik]

This thread is a perfect example of the kinds of disagreements I'm anticipating as a new green committee member.

A couple of years ago at our club, we had a green that was so severely sloped in front that putts or chips from above the hole often rolled off the green and rolled another 50 yards down to the bottom of the fairway, from where only the top of the flagstick was visible. Front hole locations would occasionally lead to legendary melt-downs during which a member would make several trips back down the fairway, score in double digits and start flinging clubs.

Rather than regrade the green, the green committee took the more reasonable approach of moving the fairway farther up into the green so that putts and chips that rolled off the green would at least stop withing a few feet of the green, rather than continuing to roll down to the bottom of the fairway. It didn't make the putt itself any easier, but at least it speeded up play by eliminating the major disasters.

I thought this was a great solution, but two nights ago the subject came up again, and one of our club's best players began criticizing the adjustment, saying we were making the course too easy. He cited a couple of instances where he and another player had managed to keep balls on the green from above the hole, and he didn't see why they shouldn't be rewarded for that.

I defended the change but couldn't change his mind, and I'm sure I never will. Perhaps this proves the old saying that every golf shot makes somebody happy.

[A.G._Crockett]

An important qualifier, I think:

If the pin position is such that there is an opportunity to hit the approach shot on the green but below the hole, then I have no problem with a well-struck putt rolling off the green if the player is above the hole.

That said, in most of the cases in which I've personally experienced a well-struck putt going off the green from above the hole, the pin was in such a place as to make it impossible to be below the hole.  I'll take the bait and say that I have a problem with that sort of setup.

[Wade Whitehead]

Carl:

There's lots of room on the front of the fifth green at Ballyhack.  I don't think I've ever seen a ball putted off the green there.

At the ninth and fourteenth (and especially at the fourteenth), a player can keep the ball on the green if he doesn't play straight at some hole locations.  Taking medicine - in the form of a 15-foot par putt - permits the player to avoid the disaster of chipping on the next shot.  Most players don't want to take that route, though, and they play an aggressive shot that carries a higher penalty.

WW

[Tom_Doak]

An important qualifier, I think:

If the pin position is such that there is an opportunity to hit the approach shot on the green but below the hole, then I have no problem with a well-struck putt rolling off the green if the player is above the hole.

That said, in most of the cases in which I've personally experienced a well-struck putt going off the green from above the hole, the pin was in such a place as to make it impossible to be below the hole.  I'll take the bait and say that I have a problem with that sort of setup.

A.G.:

I've got to call you on this one.  If it's impossible to be below the hole, what are you putting into when you putt from above the hole?

Or do you mean you demand an opportunity to be putting from the same level as the pin and below the hole?

[Peter Pallotta]

"Sometimes I think we in golf over value our percieved knowledge of golfers, and under value the opinion of the everyday golfer in favor of the expert player who knows what a good course should be."

Don - one man's opinion, but for me truer words were never spoken. I think in most cases, it is the way that "we" explain away our own lack of courage and creativity.

I worked once on a television documentary for Canada's national broadcaster, and I'll always remember the initial screening with the clients, who in reference to all the parts I thought were best would say "I think that's great, but you'd better change it/make it clearer -- the audience out there just won't get it".  In my mind, then and now, there is no such "audience".  There are only creative types and decision-makers who don't have the talent to pull off something great and who don't have the courage of their convictions, respectively.

That's not a crime, grant it -- but let's at least recognize the true factors/dynamics involved instead of continually foisting off failures on the average golfer/audience.

Plus, why is it that architects and owners alike seems to accept (and build their business model on the fact that) a rather bland but high end country club for a day will attract only a certain segment/fraction of all golfers; and that a solid but just basically maintained and less expensive golf course will attract only a certain segment/fraction of all golfers; and that a rather scruffy and very basic but dirt cheap 18 hole layout will attract only a certain segment/fraction of all golfers -- and yet we seem to demand that a very interesting set of greens and  a classic layout has to attract MORE than its share/fraction of all golfers?

[Sean_A]

I can't see a problem with a hole location, maybe two, where one can't be above the hole.  I place this sort of design in the same category as as not being able to putt at a hole because of the shape of the green.  By all means do it once in a while, but be prepared for nasty comments and don't come close to making a steady diet of back to front greens even if one can stop a putt.  It gets very old approaching uphill and putting downhill. 

Don

Sure, golf is meant to be fun, but wild stuff gets tiresome when the weather is up.  Its tough to do wild and still be great - especially when places want to crank the stimp up.  Somehow, the course has to be anchored in the familiar even if it takes a few rounds to call it that.   

Ciao 

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