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Ed Oden

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Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« on: October 25, 2012, 01:34:42 PM »
I am a huge fan of ESPN's "30 for 30" series.  Today on Grantland, Bill Simmons announced a new "short" film on Alfred Slote, an author of children's sports books among other things (here is a link to Simmons' article where you can also watch the film... http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8538119/jake).  As always, the piece is fantastic on many levels.  But I found Slote's thoughts on why he writes with a typewriter particularly interesting:

"I always wrote on a typewriter and there is a very major difference between a typewriter and a computer.  The typewriter is a writing machine and the computer is an editing machine and the books that come out of a typewriter are very different than the books that come out of a computer.  The process changes the product because you have a chance to make things perfect as you go along with the computer.  And there is a real loss of innocence I think because I would have been making it right as I went along and sucking the life out of it."

I would love to hear from some of the architects on this board if they feel a similar effect from modern design technology.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2012, 01:52:30 PM »
I would love to have a client pay me to walk around with only a small sketch book and pencil
I don't think it would be my best work, it certainly wouldn't be efficient

I do not use CAD, but do use a computer
But I can do anything that a CAD guy can do just as fast and I think better
The same way a guy with a pencil could perform the same tasks as CAD or me, only light years slower

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2012, 02:42:10 PM »
"And there is a real loss of innocence I think because I would have been making it right as I went along and sucking the life out of it."

No two writers are alike, obviously, and I wouldn't dream of telling a successful writer how to achieve his best work. But I do find this statement a major over-generalization.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2012, 03:17:08 PM »
"And there is a real loss of innocence spontaneity[,] I think[,] because I would have been making it right as I went along and sucking the life out of it."

No two writers are alike, obviously, and I wouldn't dream of telling a successful writer how to achieve his best work. But I do find this statement a major over-generalization.

Not to mention: Working on a computer, it's so much easier to change misbegotten word choices and add all necessary commas, without which you suck the life out of the reader.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2012, 04:33:19 PM »
Gentlemen,

When I think about authors and the advent of the computer/word processor what crosses my mind is that the evolution of  a piece of work may well be lost to posterity.
The scratching out and replacement of words, the shifting of sentence order, the marginal notations and thoughts on the run would all tend to go methinks  as one uses the word processor. This extra layer which may well provide insight into the pieces development are gone forever as the delete button runs red hot.

I'm not advocating quill and ink but the image of the writer in their garrett is not quite as romantic when the computer rather than the typewriter is being hammered!

I once had a book that consisted of drafts of some of T. S Eliot's poems with all his scribblings, corrections and meanderings present. Not that the extra information in this case  helped this struggling reader!

Cheers Colin

P.S. as to the real question the In My Opinion piece Computer Assisted Golf Course Design by Jeremy Glenn (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/computer-assisted-golf-course-design/) is a very good read.
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

JMEvensky

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 04:48:09 PM »


I once had a book that consisted of drafts of some of T. S Eliot's poems with all his scribblings, corrections and meanderings present. Not that the extra information in this case  helped this struggling reader!



So you got to see the decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse?

Dan Kelly

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2012, 04:56:55 PM »
I once had a book that consisted of drafts of some of T. S Eliot's poems with all his scribblings, corrections and meanderings present. Not that the extra information in this case  helped this struggling reader!

If it would please you make you happy delight you thrill you beyond words produce an almost unearthly ecstasy for you, I would be ecstatic thrilled delighted happy willing to show you all of my scribblings, corrections and meanderings.

Of courts course (no pun intended) (pun intented intended), I'm note not sure spontaneity is damned sure spontaneity is not my fortay forte (pronounced FORT, BTW).
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2012, 05:00:16 PM »
JME,

Yep..it was really neat. There were, for instance, marginal notes as to what he was alluding to in a particular line which I would never in a hundred years been able to make the connection to ...still couldn't in many cases! As I said not any real further clarity but that's just me and TSE's problem (really mine!)

The book has gone with the wind due to too many house moves years ago.

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2012, 05:04:54 PM »
Very funny Dan!!

But you don't then save all yer striking out for posterity do ye! Or do ye?
The hard copy was thrown on the floor, in the waste paper basket then picked up by the wench cleaning the garrett who was a closet scribbler and thus the world was saved!

Cheers Col
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2012, 06:12:48 PM »
"And there is a real loss of innocence spontaneity[,] I think[,] because I would have been making it right as I went along and sucking the life out of it."

No two writers are alike, obviously, and I wouldn't dream of telling a successful writer how to achieve his best work. But I do find this statement a major over-generalization.

Not to mention: Working on a computer, it's so much easier to change misbegotten word choices and add all necessary commas, without which you suck the life out of the reader.

No chit!!

I wrote my first words on a computer in late 1983 when I walked into a computer store and told the guy I wanted to buy a computer to write and sell free-lance articles in the hook-and-bullet trade.  (The pay so little I couldn't have paid someone to retype my awful output into sale-able form.

He sat me down, reached to the back of the Kaypro4 to switch it on for me.  He said, "there you go."  I asked, him what I needed to do and he said, "Nothing, go ahead and type," then he walked away.

I typed some words, noticed an error, and hit the backspace key.  When the word disappeared off the screen, the sky opened up and a shaft of light from the heavens shined on me.  I knew my life had changed forever.

Someone, Zinsser perhaps, said that the paper was the enemy.  You know that once the words are on it, they have taken on some kind of permanence. It mocks your inability to make a decision. For me it always discouraged the rewriting I know I need to do.

But the computer screen is no such animal.  It encourages rewriting, even if I do it on the fly.

In many ways it gives me even better access to the right side of my brain.  I know when I'm there when I look at my copy and find all kinds of errors that I never noticed, and will have to be fixed--later.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Dan Kelly

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2012, 06:28:39 PM »
Very funny Dan!!

But you don't then save all yer striking out for posterity do ye! Or do ye?
The hard copy was thrown on the floor, in the waste paper basket then picked up by the wench cleaning the garrett who was a closet scribbler and thus the world was saved!

Cheers Col

Colin --

You've reminded me of my favorite-ever cartoon about writing -- by Arnie Levin, in The New Yorker (probably late 1970s):



You could buy it, if you'd like to, at http://www.condenaststore.com/-sp/Writer-typing-at-desk-Behind-him-in-the-corner-is-a-pile-of-wrecked-and-New-Yorker-Cartoon-Prints_i8641028_.htm
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2012, 08:50:30 PM »
I don't think Slote is arguing that writing on a typewriter is better than writing on a computer, although that may in fact be the case for him.  Rather, it seems to me that his main point (and the part that I found interesting) is that there is a different creative process between the two which produces different results... "the books that come out of a typewriter are very different than the books that come out of a computer.  The process changes the product."  Not necessarily better, just different.  In that respect, I suspect he may be right.  So, bringing this back to GCA, my question is whether using modern technology produces difference design results?  Until now, I just assumed that modern technology primarily affects efficiency (both time and cost) and accuracy of implementation.  It never really occurred to me that the end product might potentially be materially different.

Stuart Goldstein

Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2012, 12:49:25 PM »
I believe that the author Nelson DeMille writes his novels on a yellow legal pad and has his assistants type it up.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 03:07:55 PM »
I absolutely disagree with Alfred Slote, but I don't say that he is incorrect. He offers an opinion, not a fact. It is not something that is transferable to every writer. I loved writing for Old Golf & Black on a typewriter, back in the early 1980s. These days, when I write for local  magazines, blogs or websites, I love writing on a laptop. If I had a portable keyboard, I would feel the same way about doing it on my tablet (but I don't.)

Some folks love to hold the magazine or newspaper in their hands, smell the print-meets-paper and bask in the reminiscences of an earlier time. Others could give two shets. Neither is incorrect.

If a guy made a mistake on a typewriter and failed to correct it, I might be tempted to call him lazy, not inspired.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Matt MacIver

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2012, 04:33:01 PM »
3-D printers are becoming more affordable every quarter, once they break the $1000 level they might become more common both in small businesses and households.  Does any course archetect use them now, or would you if they become more affordable? 

Separately and FWIW: if someone made a desktop 3D replica of, say, the Road Hole or Azalea, I'd probably pay good money for it. 

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2012, 05:32:59 PM »
Ed,

You reiterate "So, bringing this back to GCA, my question is whether using modern technology produces difference design results?"

If you mean in the design phase then Jeremy Glenn in the IMO piece is positive. He suggests that computers being able, for example, to layer drawings, modify sketches easily, accurately compute cut and fill and measure required amounts of fertiliser, water etc. make for efficiencies.
He concludes "..........computers assist the architects in building a solid and secure technical foundation to their design, thereby allowing the art to soar to new heights."

If you mean in the construction phase then Tom Doak in "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" writes
"Large earth scrapers and tilt-blade bulldozers replaced the mule and drag pans with which the final contours had been painstakingly sculpted ........" and "The downside of modern construction is that many of the subtle contours ...... are lost during the mass grading of modern layouts...". Upon reading this I infer that the process is less refined and outcome looks different with less "crinkles".

This sort of information suggests to me that yes modern technology produces different design results but I would like to hear specific examples from the horse's mouth.

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 10:12:48 PM »
Plans are plans.  Drawing them on a computer instead of by hand may be more efficient to some, but either way you do it, the REAL question is whether you are actually going to BUILD the course based on those plans, or whether you are going to go out on site and make it happen.  If you're doing the latter, then how you drew the plans probably won't matter very much.

Since I wrote The Anatomy of a Golf Course, we've gotten vastly better at using modern equipment to build course features -- and the technology [especially the knuckle bucket on an excavator for building bunkers] has gotten better and more precise, too.  My hesitation quoted above still applies, though -- the danger is in tearing up more ground than you need to, because you've got big machines and people presume it's easy to put everything back together again, when in fact that is sometimes the hardest thing of all. 

Ken Moum

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2012, 01:35:56 AM »
..the danger is in tearing up more ground than you need to, because you've got big machines and people presume it's easy to put everything back together again, when in fact that is sometimes the hardest thing of all. 

That sounds a bit like the dirt-moving version of Antoine de St Exupery's quote:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2012, 06:48:22 AM »
Nice quote, Ken!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2012, 10:00:40 PM »
Been thinking about this one for a few days, and have still nothing but a definite "Not Sure."

Technology has always affected building golf coures, more on the construction side.  When big dozers came in, we (as far back as Ross) used them, because we could and they did give us capabilities to do something different besides the old enforced minimalism.  Later, plastic pipe replaced more expensive and harder to install concrete, clay, etc.  I believe the result was more drain pipe on golf courses because it was affordable.  The list goes on.

I have alway sensed that the office tech, whether computers vs typewriters, or CAD vs pen and ink was just a different way to do the job, but we haven't really changed the nature of the plans we produce, save a bit more 3D images.  And, what we save because something like grassing plans are easier to achieve in CAD (after more massive set up time for base sheets, etc.) we end up devoting to something else - whether the 3D images to "prove" our grading looks right, or something else.  As I alluded in a different thread, for some reason, master plan reports keep getting bigger and bigger. 

Some of that is computers and ability to stuff boilerplate in there for some inpressive documents (easier to customize, but of course, always the risk of leaving the word "Nebraska" in a report you are using as a base for a project in Georgia)

I believe there is more ability and hence (cannot prove this) more cut and paste of existing green designs into plans.  In some cases, it makes sense.  Back in the hand drawing days, we would measure existing greens that worked the way we liked (in things like how the edge rolled) but when every draftsman started every green from scratch, they hardly ever got the actually grades they way they worked, as they sought to put their own "flare" in the plans. 

As Dick Nugent used to say, most of design style in the hand drawn days was really a function of "wrist radius."  A small armed guy tended to have smaller scale features, and a long armed guy tended to draw long curves!

Of course, anyone starting today won't be able to make that comparison, since most will start in CAD and end there, or in 3D models as suggested.  And, while I agree with TD about the field being the final test, in truth, golf architects have more freedom to deviate from plans now than in any time in my time in the biz.  If it goes back the other way, to building to plan exactly without many field changes, then in the big picture, I can't see how 3D renderings (and 3D models are even better) could do anything but help an architect visualize and communicate their design to get it built better. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2012, 07:31:38 AM »
IMHO..if an author needs a typewriter or a computer to write in a specific style then do it....but how one chooses to create any plan that is to be used to create a structure doesn't matter nearly as much because 99.999999 percent of the people  seeing the golf course or playing the golf course never see the process or the plan.  Two completely different processes..one is the final procuct and the other is a tool for creating  product. For me..I just want my routing plan and everything else is hype. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ken Moum

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Re: Author Alfred Slote on Typewriters
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2012, 10:53:17 AM »
IMHO..if an author needs a typewriter or a computer to write in a specific style then do it....but how one chooses to create any plan that is to be used to create a structure doesn't matter nearly as much because 99.999999 percent of the people  seeing the golf course or playing the golf course never see the process or the plan.  Two completely different processes..one is the final procuct and the other is a tool for creating  product. For me..I just want my routing plan and everything else is hype. 

Same thing is true of writing.  Virtually no reader will ever see a all the steps in the process, so all that matters is whether or not the final product "works."

But there are lots of people, me included, who are fascinated by the creative process.  Maybe because I've made my living as a writer.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010